Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 107 (8806 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-17-2017 10:25 PM
344 online now:
Faith, LamarkNewAge, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), NoNukes (4 members, 340 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 824,527 Year: 29,133/21,208 Month: 1,199/1,847 Week: 122/452 Day: 122/115 Hour: 4/3

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
23Next
Author Topic:   Why Evolution works inside Ecologies
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1 of 37 (720229)
02-19-2014 5:28 PM


The ecology is the matrix within which species live and evolve. This is demonstrated by this video:

All the organisms within an ecology work by interactions with all the other organisms, and no one species can be considered on it's own.

Ecology: the branch of biology dealing with the relations and interactions between organisms and their environment, including other organisms.

... from Greek oikos house (hence, environment)

My dad was an ecologist before it was a household word ...

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by RAZD, posted 02-19-2014 6:09 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2 of 37 (720230)
02-19-2014 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
02-19-2014 5:28 PM


How ecology informs us about global warming
Trees On The Move As Temperature Zones Shift 3.8 Feet A Day

quote:
... "If I'm standing in a landscape," asked Stanford ecologist a few years ago, "how far do I have to travel in order to change my temperature" to get back to the climate that suits me? Loarie, Chris Field, and their colleagues at the gathered all the data they could from climate change studies in order to measure "temperature velocity," or, as Scott put it in a podcast at the time, "How fast is temperature change sweeping across the Earth's surface?"

In 2009, they came up with an answer, in the science journal, Nature. As a global average, they said, temperatures are changing at a rate of 0.42 kilometers or roughly, a quarter mile a year, which means that if you are standing on a patch of earth, climate zones are moving at a rate (on average) of about 3.8 feet every day.

... Kenneth Feeley, and his colleagues that trees on these mountain slopes are already in motion. Not all trees, though. Just some.

Feeley looked at changes over a 4-year period, and found that trees have been moving up to get cooler at an average rate of 8 feet a year; but some, Kolbert writes, were "practically hyperactive." Trees from the genus Schefflera, (which we know as part of the gingseng family) were "racing up the ridge at the astonishing rate of nearly a hundred feet a year." Wow!

On the lazier side, when the scientists looked at the genus Ilex (a group of trees that, in North America, include the Christmas holly), those trees weren't moving at all, essentially. They'd spent the four years, "more or less inert."


So the ecology changes, and that means organisms need to adapt or die.

There will likely be many extinctions due to climate change ...

... and many new speciations as organisms adapt.

Testable predictions based on the ecology of living organisms.

Whether it happens sufficiently fast to convince the hide-bound skeptics before we are affected is another question.

So it is possible that trees will adapt faster than humans.

Note that these are measured changes, not predictions.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 02-19-2014 5:28 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Admin, posted 02-20-2014 9:32 AM RAZD has responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12536
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 3 of 37 (720231)
02-20-2014 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by RAZD
02-19-2014 6:09 PM


Re: How ecology informs us about global warming
Only debate topics need be proposed here. If you have a thread you want to start in Links and Information or Creation/Evolution In The News or The Book Nook or several other forums you can post it there directly. Did you want to begin a debate topic or post information?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by RAZD, posted 02-19-2014 6:09 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 02-20-2014 8:30 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 4 of 37 (720232)
02-20-2014 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Admin
02-20-2014 9:32 AM


Re: How ecology informs us about global warming
debate topic, probably Biological Evolution.

The idea here is to look at the matrix of life to show how evolutionary biology best explains the web of interactions rather than concentrating on single species.

Ecology predicts how species will react to new predators (Message 1)

Ecology predicts how species will react to global warming (Message 2)

Creationism can't predict either.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Admin, posted 02-20-2014 9:32 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12536
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 5 of 37 (720234)
02-21-2014 7:19 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Why Evolution works inside Ecologies thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 6 of 37 (720239)
02-21-2014 8:03 AM


That's a great story and a great video. Can't see what there might be to argue about though except that they're still wolves.....

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 10:04 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 7 of 37 (720270)
02-21-2014 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tangle
02-21-2014 8:03 AM


exciting times
That's a great story and a great video. Can't see what there might be to argue about though except that they're still wolves.....

And you are focusing on the single species view ...

The process of evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities.

It is the ecological environment that determines the selection pressures on organisms.

Deer and elk change behavior due to the predation behavior of the wolves, that changes the vegetation growing in various areas.

Global warming changes the growing zones of plants and that changes their growth patterns and the location\habitats of the organisms that depend on the plants.

As plants move up mountains they will become isolated populations, as will many animals that feed on them, creating reproductive isolation in mountain "islands".

Or they move closer to the poles and into different geological environments, and respond to new ecological challenges\opportunities.

Speciation will occur: this is a prediction based on the change in ecology that is underway ... we (if we survive) will likely observe punctuated evolution ...

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : s


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 02-21-2014 8:03 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by herebedragons, posted 02-21-2014 11:24 AM RAZD has responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1417
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 8 of 37 (720288)
02-21-2014 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
02-21-2014 10:04 AM


Re: exciting times
Speciation will occur: this is a prediction based on the change in ecology that is underway ... we (if we survive) will likely observe punctuated evolution ...

The concern that most ecologists / biologist have regarding this is the rate at which the change is occurring. While a few may survive and even thrive as a result of climate change, the majority of species will probably not be able adapt fast enough to keep up with the current rate of climate change.

The ones that will do the best at adapting are those that have very generalist diets and habits. Those with more specialized habits are unlikely to make it. These extinctions will then open up new niches that those that survive can then exploit, the problem will be that those that are able to take advantage of these new niches will probably be non-native species. One of the areas I have been studying is invasive species. They are already having an enormous impact on native vegetation and community structure. The rate of that impact is clearly accelerating.

I expect we will see a massive, global restructuring of our flora and fauna in the next couple decades. Our world is going to look radically different in the very near future.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 10:04 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 4:49 PM herebedragons has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7282
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


(4)
Message 9 of 37 (720289)
02-21-2014 11:27 AM


Micoenvironments are just as exciting
While everyone likes to watch shows about deer, bears, and wolves, there are also exciting examples of ecosystems in the microworld. The less glamorous gastrointestinal tracts of these science documentary superstars is also a great example of how the interplay between species plays out.

Cattle actually offer a good example of what I am talking about. They require a set of microorganisms in their foreguts to break down cellulose into useable sugars. The life of the big mammal rests in the flagellum and cilia of the smallest microbes. When cattle are moved from their usual habitats onto feedlots they are fed a diet high in corn instead of their usual grasses. The corn is loaded with simple sugars compared to the long chains of sugars found in cellulose that have to be broken down for them. Corn is a powerhouse of energy, and it allows cattle to gain weight quickly. However, it also changes the ecosystem of the cow's foregut. They lose their normal symbiotic and commmensal microorganisms and have them replaced by nasty, disease causing microorganisms. This is why antibiotics are used in great quantities in feedlots.

The ecosystem of the gut and mucosa are also a very cool and very accessible system to look at, IMHO.


  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 10 of 37 (720338)
02-21-2014 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by herebedragons
02-21-2014 11:24 AM


extinction event?
I expect we will see a massive, global restructuring of our flora and fauna in the next couple decades. Our world is going to look radically different in the very near future.

Indeed, I expect this to be an extinction event, and the only question is how big it is compared to previous ones.

The concern that most ecologists / biologist have regarding this is the rate at which the change is occurring. While a few may survive and even thrive as a result of climate change, the majority of species will probably not be able adapt fast enough to keep up with the current rate of climate change.

And as you say, it could well be linked to lengths of generations, favoring shorter reproductive cycles.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by herebedragons, posted 02-21-2014 11:24 AM herebedragons has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 02-22-2014 12:34 AM RAZD has responded
 Message 13 by herebedragons, posted 02-22-2014 8:50 AM RAZD has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26789
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 11 of 37 (720353)
02-22-2014 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by RAZD
02-21-2014 4:49 PM


Re: extinction event?
This is a very interesting thread, thanks. But of course I do have to point out that the evolution you are talking about is nothing but evolution within the Kind or "microevolution" as opposed to your implication that such changes validate the ToE itself.

Since I've already so many times answered the question "what prevents microevolution from becoming macroevolution?" I hope it doesn't get repeated here again, but maybe I should start collecting the posts where I've answered it so I can just put up links. Too bad I never think of that.

However, the ecological questions you are raising are interesting in themselves. Carry on.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 4:49 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 02-22-2014 8:43 AM Faith has responded
 Message 17 by Taq, posted 02-24-2014 11:27 AM Faith has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 12 of 37 (720363)
02-22-2014 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
02-22-2014 12:34 AM


Re: extinction event?
... But of course I do have to point out that the evolution you are talking about is nothing but evolution within the Kind or "microevolution" as opposed to your implication that such changes validate the ToE itself. ...

And as has been pointed out so many times to you that one almost has to predicate every new post to you with it,

The process of evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities.

By itself it doesn't implicate anything except that changing ecologies can put different selection pressures on breeding populations, especially ones that are not well adapted to the changes.

The patterns of ecological shift can be observed and their effect on breeding populations can be observed. When the shift results in islands of ecosystems, then we can predict that reproductive isolation will occur for some breeding populations that cannot interact with populations in other islands. We can predict that this will result in differential adaptations for the different islands as they continue to change, and that this can result in speciation.

As we observe the continued effects of evolution over several generations, the accumulation of changes from generation to generation may become sufficient for individuals to develop combinations of traits that are observably different from the original parent populations. This lineal change within species is sometimes called phyletic change in species, or phyletic variation, and when distinct enough from the original parent population it is sometimes called phyletic speciation. This is also sometimes called arbitrary speciation in that the place to draw the line between linearly evolved genealogical populations is subjective, and because the definition of species in general is tentative and sometimes arbitrary.

The process of divergent speciation involves the division of a parent population into two or more reproductively isolated daughter populations, which then are free to (micro) evolve independently of each other.

The processes of evolution and subsequent phyletic variation, and the process of divergent speciation have all been observed in similar conditions for breeding populations separated by geographic isolation ... these observed processes are not theory but observed fact. Fact that you have acknowledged.

This thread's purpose is to put those observed facts into an overall picture of interactions of all the organisms within an ecology and between organisms and the environment as the environment changes, and the ecology shifts as organisms adapt.

Since I've already so many times answered the question "what prevents microevolution from becoming macroevolution?" I hope it doesn't get repeated here again, but maybe I should start collecting the posts where I've answered it so I can just put up links. Too bad I never think of that.

We've agreed not to talk about "macroevolution" until we agree on what it means, and that it would take another thread to do that ... if you are interested. Furthermore, I don't need to discuss macroevolution for this thread, as the focus is on changing ecology and the effects on the adaptations within breeding populations.

Thus I am looking into the future rather than the past, making observations, making testable predictions, all in the observable present ... doing science.

However, the ecological questions you are raising are interesting in themselves. Carry on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecology

quote:
Ecology ... is the scientific study of interactions among organisms and their environment, such as the interactions organisms have with each other and with their abiotic environment. Topics of interest to ecologists include the diversity, distribution, amount (biomass), number (population) of organisms, as well as competition between them within and among ecosystems. Ecosystems are composed of dynamically interacting parts including organisms, the communities they make up, and the non-living components of their environment. Ecosystem processes, such as primary production, pedogenesis, nutrient cycling, and various niche construction activities, regulate the flux of energy and matter through an environment. These processes are sustained by organisms with specific life history traits, and the variety of organisms is called biodiversity. Biodiversity, which refers to the varieties of species, genes, and ecosystems, enhances certain ecosystem services.

Ecology is an interdisciplinary field that includes biology and Earth science. ...


The biodiversity of an ecology is like the genetic diversity of a species, where the number of species is similar to the number of alleles, and all creatures large and small are important.

Edited by RAZD, : splg


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 02-22-2014 12:34 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 02-22-2014 1:42 PM RAZD has responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1417
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 13 of 37 (720364)
02-22-2014 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by RAZD
02-21-2014 4:49 PM


Re: extinction event?
it could well be linked to lengths of generations, favoring shorter reproductive cycles.

Ah yes, I really hadn't thought about the connection of generation time, good point. In fact, as I considered this I realized how similar the global warming issue is to the invasive species issue.

These are some of the traits that can help predict whether a plant will be invasive (animals are similar, but I haven't studied invasive animals as extensively as I have plants)

- high reproductive rate
- short time to reproductive age
- rapid growth rate
- generalized niche requirements; ability to exploit new niches
- release from predation
- ability to extend growing season beyond natives
- produce novel interspecific competitive systems (ie. allelopathy, dense vegetative canopies)
- significant phenotypic variation

Invasion can also be thought of as a special case of succession, which usually proceeds in a slow, orderly and somewhat predictable fashion. However, disturbances change community structure in such a way as to disrupt this natural succession, which creates new niche opportunities that native plants often can't readily exploit. Also note that disruption of natural disturbance regimes is also a type of disturbance; suppression of fire, flooding, or ... freeze / thaw cycles can alter community structure. Global warming can definitely be thought of as a disturbance.

So my realization here is how similar global warming is to invasive species ecology and the same characteristics that predict invasiveness will be selected for by climate change. So what we are likely to see is an extinction event much like the K-T extinction where whole groups of organisms are eliminated and only a small subset make it through.

Another thing I realized ... I hate invasive species. When I see garlic mustard or spotted knapweed or common buckthorn growing along the road, I just want to stop and yank it all out. But I am wondering now if maybe its a good thing ... it may be the only plants we have left in 20 years . Maybe kudzu will make it up here to Michigan (no maybe about it) and I won't have to mow my lawn or paint my house anymore; I can just let kudzu cover it all

Quite unsettling

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 4:49 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 02-22-2014 11:57 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 14 of 37 (720378)
02-22-2014 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by herebedragons
02-22-2014 8:50 AM


Re: extinction event?
These are some of the traits that can help predict whether a plant will be invasive (animals are similar, but I haven't studied invasive animals as extensively as I have plants)

- high reproductive rate
- short time to reproductive age
- rapid growth rate
- generalized niche requirements; ability to exploit new niches
- release from predation
- ability to extend growing season beyond natives
- produce novel interspecific competitive systems (ie. allelopathy, dense vegetative canopies)
- significant phenotypic variation

Invasion can also be thought of as a special case of succession,

And is also a description of how the punk in punk-eek occurs, as I had noted in Differential Dispersal Of Introduced Species - An Aspect of Punctuated Equilibrium. Rabbits in Australia could be added to that thread.

So my realization here is how similar global warming is to invasive species ecology and the same characteristics that predict invasiveness will be selected for by climate change. So what we are likely to see is an extinction event much like the K-T extinction where whole groups of organisms are eliminated and only a small subset make it through.

Here the ecology is invading the species ... with a little help from us.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by herebedragons, posted 02-22-2014 8:50 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26789
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 15 of 37 (720386)
02-22-2014 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by RAZD
02-22-2014 8:43 AM


Re: extinction event?
Anything observable is microevolution. But do carry on.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 02-22-2014 8:43 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by RAZD, posted 02-22-2014 5:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
1
23Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017