Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 115 (8733 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-24-2017 4:10 AM
422 online now:
PaulK (1 member, 421 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: timtak
Upcoming Birthdays: OnlyCurious
Post Volume:
Total: 801,907 Year: 6,513/21,208 Month: 2,274/2,634 Week: 462/572 Day: 9/70 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
234567Next
Author Topic:   Ancient Biblical ritual saves MILLIONS of lives
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 155 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 1 of 98 (720574)
02-25-2014 7:35 AM


Bs'd

About 4000 years ago God told Abraham to circumcise himself and his male descendants. This practice is still done by Jews and Arabs, all descendants of Abraham, while also some others have adopted this practice.

And it turns out that this Biblical command is literally a life saver, which has in the last decades saved many millions of lives, by preventing evil diseases, amongst them deadly ones like AIDS.

More than 40 studies have shown that circumcised males have a strongly reduced chance for AIDS infection, and in countries where AIDS is rampant, for instance Africa, and where people have to live of less than $2 a day, and AIDS medication costs between $10 and more than $30 a day, there AIDS is a death sentence.

And since male circumcision prevents the majority of AIDS infections, therefore it is a mega-life saver:

"A preliminary analysis by Halperin and Malcolm Potts, MD, PhD, Bixby Professor of Population and Family Planning at the UC Berkeley School of Public Health, estimates that the practice of male circumcision has so far prevented at least 8 million HIV infections in the 15 African and Asian countries cited in the editorial review alone."

And it not only strongly reduces the chances of AIDS, but also of penile cancer, prostate cancer, cancer of the cervix by the partner of the circumcised man, and more.

For the finer details look HERE

So we see that the divine laws from the Torah a literally life savers, like it is written:

"Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law. 47 They are not just idle words for you—they are your life. By them you will live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess.”
Deut 32



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 02-25-2014 8:44 AM Eliyahu has responded
 Message 14 by Stile, posted 02-25-2014 10:30 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 02-25-2014 1:50 PM Eliyahu has responded
 Message 28 by Pressie, posted 02-25-2014 10:44 PM Eliyahu has responded
 Message 45 by frako, posted 02-26-2014 8:31 AM Eliyahu has responded

    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1781
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 98 (720575)
02-25-2014 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eliyahu
02-25-2014 7:35 AM


Which Forum?
This is an interesting topic---which way do you wish to present and defend it? I can put this in Faith/Belief, Comparitive Religions, or....since there is science involved--Is It Science?

Which way do you wish to present this topic?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eliyahu, posted 02-25-2014 7:35 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Eliyahu, posted 02-25-2014 8:50 AM AdminPhat has responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 155 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 3 of 98 (720576)
02-25-2014 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
02-25-2014 8:44 AM


Re: Which Forum?
Bs'd

Interesting question.

Let's put it in "is it science?"



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 02-25-2014 8:44 AM AdminPhat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AdminPhat, posted 02-25-2014 9:07 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1781
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 4 of 98 (720577)
02-25-2014 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Eliyahu
02-25-2014 8:50 AM


Re: Which Forum?
Eliyahu writes:

Let's put it in "is it science?"

OK, but keep in mind that the discussion will have to be based on more than just scripture. Perhaps you can expand on it philosophically.

I was intrigued by your link, Science is a method, not a position

Lets see if you can support the idea of circumcision from an entirely scientific perspective. It should be rather easy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Eliyahu, posted 02-25-2014 8:50 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1781
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 5 of 98 (720578)
02-25-2014 9:08 AM


Thread Copied to Is It Science? Forum
error

Edited by AdminPhat, : oops


    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1781
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 6 of 98 (720579)
02-25-2014 9:08 AM


error#2

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1781
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 7 of 98 (720581)
02-25-2014 9:08 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Ancient Biblical ritual saves MILLIONS of lives thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4400
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(5)
Message 8 of 98 (720584)
02-25-2014 9:26 AM


Care to tell us why this knowledgeable god gave us a foreskin to start with then? Seems like a bit of a hack to me......

(Or AIDS for that matter.)


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Theodoric, posted 02-25-2014 10:00 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 11 by Heathen, posted 02-25-2014 10:12 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4400
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 9 of 98 (720588)
02-25-2014 9:57 AM


Can we ask for a product recall? If so, I'd also like a bigger one please.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5700
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 10 of 98 (720589)
02-25-2014 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Tangle
02-25-2014 9:26 AM


evidently this perfect god dude screwed up.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Tangle, posted 02-25-2014 9:26 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 02-25-2014 10:26 AM Theodoric has not yet responded
 Message 50 by Eliyahu, posted 02-27-2014 12:39 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Heathen
Member
Posts: 1012
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 11 of 98 (720595)
02-25-2014 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Tangle
02-25-2014 9:26 AM


Seems like a bit of a hack to me

*sharp intake of breath*..*crosses legs*
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Tangle, posted 02-25-2014 9:26 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by vimesey, posted 02-25-2014 10:30 AM Heathen has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9259
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 12 of 98 (720596)
02-25-2014 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Theodoric
02-25-2014 10:00 AM


Hacks
Tangle writes:

Care to tell us why this knowledgeable god gave us a foreskin to start with then? Seems like a bit of a hack to me......

Apparantly it was humans who did the hacking. From a scientific perspective, we could readily question the intelligence of a Creator(assuming One exists) but in order to do so all that we can do is speculate philosophically.

Theodoric writes:

evidently this perfect god dude screwed up.

One could philosophize that there are some aspects of the creative process that are left for humans to work. Hypothetically, if God created everything finished, we humans would have nothing to do.

Thinking As A Science writes:

If a man were
to know everything he could not think. Nothing
would ever puzzle him, his purposes would
never be thwarted, he would never experience
perplexity or doubt, he would have no problems.
If we are to conceive of God as an All-Knower,
we cannot conceive of Him as a Thinking Being. Thinking is reserved for beings of finite
intelligence.

Hypothetically, a Creator, should one exist, would not necessarily have to create finished products. Humans are a prime example. Were it so that we were created as finished or perfect, there would be no need to think, explore, discover, and/or solve anything.

It makes more sense that circumcision, apart from being a mere religious ritual, was also symbolic of humans "cleaning up" a part of their body that could harbor disease or uncleanness. (Not that humans knew the activity of bacteria at that time)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Theodoric, posted 02-25-2014 10:00 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 02-25-2014 10:39 AM Phat has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 783
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 13 of 98 (720597)
02-25-2014 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Heathen
02-25-2014 10:12 AM


It's ok mate - we're in the Matrix, don't forget. All we need do is believe, and we can grow a new one.

Actually, all you have to do is believe that reality isn't real, and all problems fade away. Makes you wonder why someone would worry about AIDS or foreskins at all.

Unless, or course, reality really is real, and someone would actually quite like it if real science really solved his real problems ;-)


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Heathen, posted 02-25-2014 10:12 AM Heathen has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 2848
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 14 of 98 (720598)
02-25-2014 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eliyahu
02-25-2014 7:35 AM


Living in the past
Eliyahu writes:

About 4000 years ago God told Abraham to circumcise himself and his male descendants. This practice is still done by Jews and Arabs, all descendants of Abraham, while also some others have adopted this practice.

Well, no. That's not how it happened.

You see, at some point in the past nobody did circumcisions at all. Most people wouldn't think of taking a knife to their own bits. It understandably seemed counterproductive by the common sense of the era.

Then, with no modern medicine, lots of deaths occurred. And many of those deaths were obviously caused by infection in the penis region. They could see this because of all the dead bodies with horrific looking, diseased penises (penii?).

So, then someone had the bright idea of cutting off the extra skin around the penis so that it wouldn't collect all the disease so easily. I think he did it on his little brother, first... but I could be mistaken.
Or, maybe someone had an accident that caused such a thing and it was discovered without forethought, even.

Kind of like how Svyatoslav Fyodorov discovered radial keratotomy (eventually leading to laser eye surgery)

quote:
In 1974, Svyatoslav Fyodorov removed glass from the eye of a boy who had been in an accident. The boy, who required eyeglasses for correction of myopia caused by astigmatism, fell off his bicycle. His glasses shattered on impact, and glass particles lodged in both eyes. To save the boy's vision, Fyodorov performed an operation which consisted of making numerous radial incisions extending from the pupil to the periphery of the cornea in a radial pattern like the spokes of a wheel. After the glass was removed by this method and the cornea healed, Fyodorov found that the boy's visual acuity had improved significantly.

Eventually, it became obvious that cutting off the extra skin from the penis made it easier to stay healthy and away from disease.

Then, some folks wrote it down in a book and called it circumcision.
But, because it had been so many hundreds of years since they started the practice, they forgot how it all started.
To them, it seemed difficult to imagine that someone would hurt themselves in such a way on purpose... so they just said exactly what you're saying today: "God did it."

Made sense then... not so much now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eliyahu, posted 02-25-2014 7:35 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by caffeine, posted 02-26-2014 9:28 AM Stile has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4400
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 15 of 98 (720600)
02-25-2014 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
02-25-2014 10:26 AM


Re: Hacks
Phat writes:

One could philosophize that there are some aspects of the creative process that are left for humans to work.

God's a bloke, right? No way would he have got the design of the dick wrong. (And so small...)

Hypothetically, if God created everything finished, we humans would have nothing to do.

So he invented hacking off bits of dick as a passtime? He's worse than Satan.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 02-25-2014 10:26 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 02-25-2014 10:46 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 18 by Diomedes, posted 02-25-2014 10:55 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
1
234567Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017