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Author Topic:   Ancient Biblical ritual saves MILLIONS of lives
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 31 of 98 (720654)
02-25-2014 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Coyote
02-25-2014 11:12 PM


Re: The unkindest cut of all...
Any correlation between circumcision and arid regions where there is insufficient water for bathing (or cultures which did not emphasize bathing). Hmmmm.

Bs'd

The Torah emphasizes bathing and circumcision. For many reasons you are obligated to wash yourself:

Exodus 30:20
Whenever they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water so that they will not die.

Exodus 30:19
Aaron and his sons are to wash their hands and feet with water from it.

Exodus 29:4
Then bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance to the tent of meeting and wash them with water.

Exodus 19:10
And the Lord said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. Have them wash their clothes

Leviticus 11:25
Whoever picks up one of their carcasses must wash their clothes, and they will be unclean till evening.

Leviticus 13:6
On the seventh day the priest is to examine them again, and if the sore has faded and has not spread in the skin, the priest shall pronounce them clean; it is only a rash. They must wash their clothes, and they will be clean.

Leviticus 14:8
“The person to be cleansed must wash their clothes, shave off all their hair and bathe with water; then they will be ceremonially clean.

Leviticus 14:47
Anyone who sleeps or eats in the house must wash their clothes.

Leviticus 14:8
“The person to be cleansed must wash their clothes, shave off all their hair and bathe with water;

Leviticus 15:6
Whoever sits on anything that the man with a discharge sat on must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.

There is much more like this. No hygiene problems amongst the Israelites.

But hygiene does not come into the picture for preventing AIDS.



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 32 of 98 (720656)
02-26-2014 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
02-25-2014 10:46 AM


So is there any current evidence that uncircumcised men...today...are a greater health risk?

Bs'd

There is overwhelming evidence that uncircumcised men are three times more likely to be infected with AIDS.

They have about two times more chance to be infected with the HPV virus, which causes prostate cancer and cancer of the cervix.

Also the chance for other STD's goes down.

Circumcised infants have about 10 times less chance for an urinary tract infection, which is very painfull, and in some cases when it reaches the kidneys, is fatal.

Infant circumcision gives almost 100% protection against penile cancer.

So yes, uncircumcised men are at greater health risk.



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 02-25-2014 10:46 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 33 of 98 (720657)
02-26-2014 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
02-25-2014 2:05 PM


Circumcision is also symbolic, symbolic of the removal of the "flesh" or the "world" from around the "heart" which is symbolic of the human spirit, thus releasing the human spirit which had been buried in the flesh. God is making for himself a spiritual people out of a fleshly people. This was fulfilled through the Messiah, Jesus Christ, as were all the other symbols and types of the Old Testament.

Bs'd

Christianity threw all Gods laws overboard, replaced it with paganism, introduces an extra man-god; the "son", and runs after a messiah who didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.

And then they think they are the new chosen people....



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 02-25-2014 2:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 02-26-2014 1:13 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 34 of 98 (720658)
02-26-2014 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Pressie
02-25-2014 10:44 PM


Couldn't he have just given them a recipe for producing a bar of soap? That would have been much less traumatic than cutting the skin off.

Bs'd

A bar of soap doesn't prevent most AIDS cases.

And infant circumcision is not traumatic.

I regularly watch circumcisions in my community, and baby's don't appear to be traumatized.



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Pressie, posted 02-25-2014 10:44 PM Pressie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2729
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 35 of 98 (720659)
02-26-2014 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Eliyahu
02-25-2014 11:38 PM


Another beneficial practice, though probably not biblical, is drinking beer, which has saved millions of lives. You can take the most disease-ridden water, like from a duck pond, and render it safe to drink by making it into beer. And over the centuries, people could plainly see that beer was much safer to drink than water was, so that became the common practice. Of course, they had no idea of the presence of those deadly microbes in the water. Nor that the act of boiling the water, which is part of the brewing process, is what actually kills those microbes. If they had, then they would have just boiled the water and drunk that. But they didn't know that, so drinking beer was the solution.

We learn what's safe and what isn't and we teach our children. Then that gets codified. That's all that happened. Not divine revelation, but rather cultural memory.

BTW, as I understand it, the practice of circumcision goes back into prehistory with the earliest mention being in Egyptian records. So instead of crediting YHWH, shouldn't we be praising the Egyptian god or gods who had told the Egyptians about this practice? After all, they came up with it first, or at least before YHWH had. Just as we should be crediting the gods Bel and Anu for Mosaic Law.


This message is a reply to:
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TrueCreation
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 36 of 98 (720661)
02-26-2014 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Eliyahu
02-26-2014 12:12 AM


quote:
And infant circumcision is not traumatic.

I regularly watch circumcisions in my community, and baby's don't appear to be traumatized.



This has to be a joke.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Eliyahu, posted 02-26-2014 12:12 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24447
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 37 of 98 (720663)
02-26-2014 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Eliyahu
02-26-2014 12:07 AM


Christianity threw all Gods laws overboard, replaced it with paganism, introduces an extra man-god; the "son", and runs after a messiah who didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.

Spoken like a good Pharisee, which you are, right?

Nobody threw God's laws overboard, the NT declares them holy and binding, and Jesus said He didn't come to abolish but to fulfill them and that every jot and tittle of the Hebrew writing would be fulfilled. I'm sure you are aware of that passage. He is the one who fulfilled the law, to perfection, because nobody born of the fallen human race is capable of obeying it to perfection, and perfection is required to qualify for God's presence, even the tiniest violation of the law being enough to condemn us for eternity. Because God is infinite and perfect and nobody can exist in His presence without His holiness. So Jesus, the Son of God, became a man in order to robe us in that holiness by paying for our sins against the Law through His own death as well as by obeying the Law to perfection. You think you can earn your way into God's presence but that is quite simply impossible for any human being. You fail all the time, every day, every hour, every minute, as we all do.

The identity of Jesus is revealed throughout the Hebrew scriptures, and He fulfilled every messianic prophecy though you strain yourself to deny it. I hope you may eventually come to recognize it.

What do you think "Kiss the Son" means in Psalm 2?

And then they think they are the new chosen people....

Well, not exactly. We have been "grafted" into the root of Abraham, so we are his adopted offspring, and one body with all the faithful Jews of the Old Testament, grafted into the Chosen People, not a new or separate chosen people, although some things did change when Jesus came.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Eliyahu, posted 02-26-2014 12:07 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by dwise1, posted 02-26-2014 2:02 AM Faith has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5663
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 38 of 98 (720665)
02-26-2014 1:47 AM


Some statistics
From Wiki:

Penile cancer is a rare cancer in developed nations with annual incidence varying from 0.3 to 1 per 100,000 per year.

The lifetime risk has been estimated as 1 in 1,437 in the United States and 1 in 1,694 in Denmark.

This year, an estimated 1,570 men in the United States will be diagnosed with penile cancer. An estimated 310 deaths from the disease will occur this year.

=============

About 1 in 8 (12%) women in the US will develop invasive breast cancer during their lifetime.

The chance that breast cancer will be responsible for a woman's death is about 1 in 36.

The American Cancer Society's estimates for breast cancer in the United States for 2014 are:

--About 232,670 new cases of invasive breast cancer will be diagnosed in women.
--About 62,570 new cases of carcinoma in situ (CIS) will be diagnosed (CIS is non-invasive and is the earliest form of breast cancer).
--About 40,000 women will die from breast cancer.

=============

232,670 cases and 40,000 deaths! We have to do something!

Off with all breasts! We can't take any chances!

To be serious: if these statistics are correct, it shows that the hysteria over penile cancer is just an effort to promote a religious belief in ritual genital mutilation on anyone and everyone. The death rate from penile cancer seems to be far below that of pedestrians (4,280) and half that of bicyclists (618). And the death rate from breast cancer is far higher--about 125 times higher--but we don't have the same call for removing breasts as we do for removing foreskins.

Maybe some folks should just practice their religions in private and leave the rest of us alone.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 2729
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 39 of 98 (720666)
02-26-2014 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
02-26-2014 1:13 AM


Faith, are you perchance familiar with one particular Pharisee teaching?

In my Rabbinic Literature class, we read the Pirke Avoth. Around 20 BCE, a gentile was trying to rattle the Jewish scholars by demanding that they recite the whole of the Law while standing on one foot.

Now, at that time in both Jewish and Gentile schools the practice was to memorize all the teachings of that school; given the realities of those hyper-per-Guttenberg times, that was a necessary requirement -- it was the Guttenberg press that made the Reformation possible; without the printing press, the very idea of everyone studying the Bible for themselves would have been absolutely ludicrous. In the Jewish schools, that body of teachings that needed to be memorized would have included the Torah, plus more. The Torah is The Law, so that rabble-rousing gentile was asking that each scholar recite the Torah while standing on one foot.

The head rabbi of the Sadducees did the right thing, which was to grab a stick and chase that idiot off the premises. Instead, Rabbi Hillel of the Pharisees responded to that gentile: "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn it."

Yes, that the Pharisees would be teaching the spirit of the Law in opposition to what the Christians say about them ... kind of makes you think, eh? Especially when it happened about 50 years before the purported ministry of Jesus. Oh, I'm sorry! Christians? Think? What could I have possibly been thinking?

If you are perchance a Star Trek fan, remember back to the early end of the first season of the original series (TOS, meaning either "the original series" or "the old show"). Dagger of the Mind, screenplay by one Simon bar David. Dr. Adams recalls to Kirk the story of Rabbi Hillel and the Gentile, though he makes Rabbi Hillel into a philosopher.

Now, by the time that the Gospels were forming, which would have been during the Diaspora, it as the Pharisee school that was trying to preserve Judaism. And it would have been the Pharisees that would have been in conflict with the early Christians, so naturally the early Christians would have bad-mouthed the Pharisees as much as they could.

But then, how true Eliyahu is being to Pharisee teachings has yet to be seen. I think we are talking about two different kinds of beasties here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 02-26-2014 1:13 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 02-26-2014 2:07 AM dwise1 has responded
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 02-26-2014 2:10 AM dwise1 has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24447
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 40 of 98 (720667)
02-26-2014 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by dwise1
02-26-2014 2:02 AM


Fraid most of your post went over my head. Yes I suppose how much of a Pharisee Eliyahu is remains to be seen, but his arguments so far do remind me of arguments I've had with Orthodox Jews who are the descendants of the Pharisees of Jesus' day.

Maybe you'd like to run some of your other stuff by me again?

But no, I hadn't heard of that story you mention.

I was really never much into Star Trek by the way.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by dwise1, posted 02-26-2014 2:02 AM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 24447
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 41 of 98 (720668)
02-26-2014 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by dwise1
02-26-2014 2:02 AM


Another skim-thru tells me all you are saying is that you like the Pharisees better than you like the Christians. Nothing much to say about that. You're entitled to your opinion, as they say.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by dwise1, posted 02-26-2014 2:02 AM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by dwise1, posted 02-26-2014 2:40 AM Faith has responded

    
dwise1
Member
Posts: 2729
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 42 of 98 (720669)
02-26-2014 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
02-26-2014 2:07 AM


Yes, the Golden Rule is Pharisee in origin. At least as Jesus would have picked it up.

Jeez, woman! So read the Pirke Avoth already! Then watch Barbara Streisand in Yentl, where she poses as a man in order to study in a yeshiva. "The more learning the more life." Four kinds of charity. Four kinds of students. Jeez, woman! Haven't you studied anything? Read the Pirke Avoth!, AKA "Sayings of the Fathers", etc.

As for Star Trek and science fiction, we have that sage observation:
Those who neglect the lessons of science fiction are doomed to live them.

But just applying some strict and basic chronology, we have Rabbi Hillel presenting the Golden Rule circa 20 BCE and we have Rabbi Yeshua (AKA "Jesus") presenting it circa 30 CE. Who presented the Golden Rule before the other? Rabbi Hillel, the Pharisee, of course.


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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2729
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 43 of 98 (720670)
02-26-2014 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
02-26-2014 2:10 AM


Sorry. I've been having to deal with Christians most of my life. Much more so since the "Jesus Freak Movement" hit around 1970 which then did their utmost to make the 1970's a living hell for the normals.

While Jewish scholarship has an outstanding two-millennia tradition of excellence, Christian "scholarship" has been abysmal, primarily based in ignorance and at present day reveling in abject ignorance as evidence by "creation science".

But as I look upon Eliyahu's posts here, I am truly sickened at the depths that that long history of excellent scholarship has degenerated into.

But hey, Jews vs Christians. Who comes out ahead? The Jews every single time! I've seen the Christians at work bringing on their best. It's absolutely pitiful. Lies, deception, ignorance.

Doesn't mean I accept the Jewish position, but it does still carry a helluva lot more weight than that Christian bullshit.

Really, if you truly believe that you have a better argument, then present it already! I have actually asked that of creationists before. Know what the response was? Specifically, I asked a creationist on a Yahoo groups forum why creationists keep presenting such weak unconvincing arguments. He replied that the only reason I didn't find the arguments convincing was because I wasn't already convinced. That gave away the entire creationist pretense right there!


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 Message 41 by Faith, posted 02-26-2014 2:10 AM Faith has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 24447
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 44 of 98 (720671)
02-26-2014 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by dwise1
02-26-2014 2:40 AM


This isn't the thread for it but I am curious how the Jesus Freaks managed to make your life so miserable that you keep bringing them up at every opportunity.
This message is a reply to:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2684
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


(2)
Message 45 of 98 (720676)
02-26-2014 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eliyahu
02-25-2014 7:35 AM


And it turns out that this Biblical command is literally a life saver, which has in the last decades saved many millions of lives, by preventing evil diseases, amongst them deadly ones like AIDS.

Yea but you forgot the best ritual to cure leprosy, it really works and these scientists just laugh at the bible how dare they.

Leviticus 14:1-57

Laws for Cleansing Lepers

14 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “This shall be the law of the leprous person for the day of his cleansing. He shall be brought to the priest, 3 and the priest shall go out of the camp, and the priest shall look. Then, if the case of leprous disease is healed in the leprous person, 4 the priest shall command them to take for him who is to be cleansed two live[a] clean birds and cedarwood and scarlet yarn and hyssop. 5 And the priest shall command them to kill one of the birds in an earthenware vessel over fresh water. 6 He shall take the live bird with the cedarwood and the scarlet yarn and the hyssop, and dip them and the live bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the fresh water. 7 And he shall sprinkle it seven times on him who is to be cleansed of the leprous disease. Then he shall pronounce him clean and shall let the living bird go into the open field. 8 And he who is to be cleansed shall wash his clothes and shave off all his hair and bathe himself in water, and he shall be clean. And after that he may come into the camp, but live outside his tent seven days. 9 And on the seventh day he shall shave off all his hair from his head, his beard, and his eyebrows. He shall shave off all his hair, and then he shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and he shall be clean.

10 “And on the eighth day he shall take two male lambs without blemish, and one ewe lamb a year old without blemish, and a grain offering of three tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, and one log[d] of oil. 11 And the priest who cleanses him shall set the man who is to be cleansed and these things before the Lord, at the entrance of the tent of meeting. 12 And the priest shall take one of the male lambs and offer it for a guilt offering, along with the log of oil, and wave them for a wave offering before the Lord. 13 And he shall kill the lamb in the place where they kill the sin offering and the burnt offering, in the place of the sanctuary. For the guilt offering, like the sin offering, belongs to the priest; it is most holy. 14 The priest shall take some of the blood of the guilt offering, and the priest shall put it on the lobe of the right ear of him who is to be cleansed and on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot. 15 Then the priest shall take some of the log of oil and pour it into the palm of his own left hand 16 and dip his right finger in the oil that is in his left hand and sprinkle some oil with his finger seven times before the Lord. 17 And some of the oil that remains in his hand the priest shall put on the lobe of the right ear of him who is to be cleansed and on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot, on top of the blood of the guilt offering. 18 And the rest of the oil that is in the priest's hand he shall put on the head of him who is to be cleansed. Then the priest shall make atonement for him before the Lord. 19 The priest shall offer the sin offering, to make atonement for him who is to be cleansed from his uncleanness. And afterward he shall kill the burnt offering. 20 And the priest shall offer the burnt offering and the grain offering on the altar. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be clean.

21 “But if he is poor and cannot afford so much, then he shall take one male lamb for a guilt offering to be waved, to make atonement for him, and a tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, and a log of oil; 22 also two turtledoves or two pigeons, whichever he can afford. The one shall be a sin offering and the other a burnt offering. 23 And on the eighth day he shall bring them for his cleansing to the priest, to the entrance of the tent of meeting, before the Lord. 24 And the priest shall take the lamb of the guilt offering and the log of oil, and the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the Lord. 25 And he shall kill the lamb of the guilt offering. And the priest shall take some of the blood of the guilt offering and put it on the lobe of the right ear of him who is to be cleansed, and on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot. 26 And the priest shall pour some of the oil into the palm of his own left hand, 27 and shall sprinkle with his right finger some of the oil that is in his left hand seven times before the Lord. 28 And the priest shall put some of the oil that is in his hand on the lobe of the right ear of him who is to be cleansed and on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot, in the place where the blood of the guilt offering was put. 29 And the rest of the oil that is in the priest's hand he shall put on the head of him who is to be cleansed, to make atonement for him before the Lord. 30 And he shall offer, of the turtledoves or pigeons, whichever he can afford, 31 one[e] for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering, along with a grain offering. And the priest shall make atonement before the Lord for him who is being cleansed. 32 This is the law for him in whom is a case of leprous disease, who cannot afford the offerings for his cleansing.”

I wonder why doctors don just preform this ritual to heal the lepers why do they insist on giving them the unholy dapsone and rifampicin cures. And it takes 6 months boy are scientist idiots for not listening to the bible.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eliyahu, posted 02-25-2014 7:35 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Eliyahu, posted 02-27-2014 2:11 AM frako has responded

    
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