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Author Topic:   Ancient Biblical ritual saves MILLIONS of lives
frako
Member
Posts: 2701
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 61 of 98 (720879)
02-28-2014 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Eliyahu
02-28-2014 2:09 AM


Bs'd

Look a little into the hygiene standards of Europe in the middle ages. Then you'll know better.

would that be during the dark ages, when religion ruled supreme. You try looking a bit earlier during the time of the Roman empire.

Romans loved to bathe, there are Roman baths all over Europe some still standing the way they where some modernised, we have a bunch in my country.

Romans preformed brain surgery, not knowing basic hygiene preforming such operations would be a death sentence, though it wasn't.

they had sewer systems, while in the dark ages they just threw the shit on to the street.

They had public latrines.

Acuaducts bringing water in to houses......

But then came the dark ages when Christianity said, you only need one book, and lets write it in Latin just to be sure the common rabble do sent find out how silly it is.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Eliyahu, posted 02-28-2014 2:09 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 276 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 62 of 98 (720881)
02-28-2014 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by caffeine
02-28-2014 4:42 AM


Better to live in the present
I'd disagree that washing every day is a modern cleaning practice. Don't look to the appalling hygiene standards that existed in pre-modern Europe and assume this was the standard for the ancient world. Most pre-modern cultures had stricter hygiene standards than this, including those which practiced circumcision. Egyptian culture, in particular, was very fastidious about cleanliness, and Arabic culture also has traditions of ritual washing.

Bs'd

In the desert water is a precious commodity, so that is not wasted on mundane things like washing everyday.

Even nowadays hygienic practices are in many places not what they are supposed to be:

The proponents of not circumcising nevertheless stress that lifelong penile hygiene is required. This acknowledges that something harmful or unpleasant is happening under the prepuce. Studies of middle class British [172] and Scandanavian [259] schoolboys concluded that penile hygiene, as such, is at best poor and at worst non-existent. Furthermore, Dr Terry Russell, an Australian medical practitioner and circumcision expert states "What man after a night of passion is going to perform penile hygiene before rolling over and snoring the night away (with pathogenic organisms multiplying in the warm moist environment under the prepuce)" [301]. The bacteria start multiplying again immediately after washing and contribute, along with skin secretions, to the whitish film, termed 'smegma', that is found under the foreskin.

Smegma is produced by the foreskin's inner surface and contains neutral lipids, fatty acids, sterol and exfoliated cells. Excretion of smegma increases in adolescence and peaks at age 20-40 years. Whereas initially it is a lubricant having a white or pale yellow color, with time, chemical transformations take place and it becomes mixed with epithelial cells, dirt and micro-organisms; these form aggregates and produce foul odors. The bacteria alone give off an offensive smell and most people consider smegma to be unclean [405]. Men differ in their sensitivity to this smell and some shower several times a day as a result (See section `What men say'). Some uncircumcised men, and/or their partners, find the stench so unpleasant that the foul odor has caused these men to seek a circumcision on this basis alone. Improved penile hygiene is perhaps the major reason for circumcision (82% in one study [251]) and, for most, smegma is regarded as unclean and infected with micro-organisms (88% in the same study [251]). Penile hygiene is often difficult to achieve and attempting a very high degree of hygiene in uncircumcised men can result in new dermatological problems. For mothers and fathers, it is far easier to maintain cleanliness of their son's penis if it is circumcised. If their son is not circumcised the messages are confusing: should they clean under the foreskin or leave it alone?

A survey in London of 150 uncircumcised and 75 circumcised men found 4% of circumcised compared with 26% of uncircumcised men had inferior genital hygiene behavior, i.e., did not always wash the entire penis (the uncircumcised men did not always wash under the foreskin) [249]. Balanitis, phimosis or other foreskin conditions that made foreskin retraction painful might have contributed to their inferior hygiene. The circumcised men also washed the genitals more than once per day (37% vs 19%; P = 0.01).

172. Kalcev B. Circumcision and personal hygiene in school boys. Med
Officer. 1964; 112: 171-173.
249. O'Farrell N, Quigley M, Fox P. Association between the intact foreskin and inferior standards of male genital hygiene behaviour: a cross-sectional study. Int J STD AIDS. 2005; 16: 556-559.
259. Oster J. Further fate of the foreskin: incidence of preputial
adhesions, phimosis and smegma among Danish schoolboys. Arch Dis Child.
1968; 43: 200-203.



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by caffeine, posted 02-28-2014 4:42 AM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 276 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 63 of 98 (720882)
02-28-2014 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by frako
02-28-2014 5:56 AM


Giving it over to others through saliva and nasal mucus is what is called "contagious".

Yea but wiki says " Often the word can only be understood in context, where it is used to emphasise very infectious, easily transmitted, or especially severe communicable disease"

Bs'd

Everybody can put on wiki whatever he wants, so that means nothing.

Contagious is contagious, even when it is not very contagious.

An all knowing all powerful god could have given way better instructions and no one would get sick, and no one would get shunned.

Yes He could have. But He choose to give humans free will. And if humans go against Gods laws, they'll get punished. And then they might get sick and shunned.



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by frako, posted 02-28-2014 5:56 AM frako has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Theodoric, posted 02-28-2014 9:25 AM Eliyahu has responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1313
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 64 of 98 (720893)
02-28-2014 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Eliyahu
02-28-2014 6:37 AM


Re: Better to live in the present
In the desert water is a precious commodity, so that is not wasted on mundane things like washing everyday.

That's why very few people live in deserts. Ancient Egypt wasn't a desert civilisation. The desert was mostly empty of people, just like today. Ancient Egypt was the river Nile and the coast - places with abundant water amenable to growth of human civillisation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Eliyahu, posted 02-28-2014 6:37 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Theodoric, posted 02-28-2014 9:50 AM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(1)
Message 65 of 98 (720895)
02-28-2014 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Eliyahu
02-28-2014 6:49 AM


That’s because evidence shows that 95% of all adults are naturally unable to get the disease, even if they’re exposed to the bacteria that causes it.

Source
This is only coming from the CDC, so I guess they can post anything they want.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Eliyahu, posted 02-28-2014 6:49 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Eliyahu, posted 03-04-2014 12:08 AM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 66 of 98 (720897)
02-28-2014 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by caffeine
02-28-2014 9:24 AM


Re: Better to live in the present
Israel and Judah were not desert cultures either.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by caffeine, posted 02-28-2014 9:24 AM caffeine has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11540
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 67 of 98 (720898)
02-28-2014 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Eliyahu
02-28-2014 12:49 AM


But you could just as accurately say that a ritual that has come to save millions of lives had become a Biblical ritual.

The only problem is that all evidence for that assumption is lacking.

No it isn't. The Egyptians were doing circumcisions before the Jews were. They've found wall carvings showing it and they've found mummies that were circumcised.

Another problem is that the Biblical laws are unique for the Bible. If you compare the Biblical laws with the contemporary pagan laws, then you see a tremendous difference.

I'm not talking about the contemporaries. I'm talking about the predecessors.

The Biblical laws are enormous life savers. The pagan medical remedies would help you sooner into you grave.

There are Biblical laws that would help you sooner into the grave, too. They've been pointed out to you in this thread.

No other holy book or even medical book prescribes circumcision.

Only Egypt had it for a while, because the Israelites lived for centuries in Egypt, and forced circumcision upon the Egyptians.

No, the Jews learned circumcision from the Egyptians. You just want to make your religion out to be better than it is.

At least we agree on the fact that the Biblical laws are very beneficial .

Not all of them. Some of them, sure. But that's because if you know something is beneficial, then you might as well write it down.

And why did the Jews figure out what was very beneficial, like circumcision on the eight day, and could no other culture figure out what was so beneficial?

The Egyptians figured it out before the Jews did.

Divine intervention.

That's just your wishful thinking. And the evidence shows that if it was divine intervention, then it was for the Egyptians rather than the Jews.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Eliyahu, posted 02-28-2014 12:49 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Eliyahu, posted 03-04-2014 12:14 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 276 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 68 of 98 (721131)
03-04-2014 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Theodoric
02-28-2014 9:25 AM


That’s because evidence shows that 95% of all adults are naturally unable to get the disease, even if they’re exposed to the bacteria that causes it.

Source
This is only coming from the CDC, so I guess they can post anything they want.

Bs'd

They can, but I take CDC to be a reliable source. Wikipedia of course is not.

So 95% of the people cannot become leppers. Still CDC says: "You may be at risk for the disease if you: live in a country where the disease is widespread. Such countries include: ..... "

So still, in some countries the disease is wide spread, Millions of people suffering and slowly dying because of it.

And also that is either prevented or strongly diminished by the laws of the Torah, given 3300 years ago.

So the laws of the Torah prevent untold human suffering and dying, also in the case of leprosy.

.
.
.



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Theodoric, posted 02-28-2014 9:25 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Theodoric, posted 03-04-2014 8:17 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 276 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 69 of 98 (721132)
03-04-2014 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by New Cat's Eye
02-28-2014 9:53 AM


``
The Egyptians were doing circumcisions before the Jews were. They've found wall carvings showing it and they've found mummies that were circumcised.

Bs'd

The Israelites lived for centuries among the Egyptians, and they forced circumcision on the Egyptians. So the Egyptians got it from the Jews, not the other way around.

There are Biblical laws that would help you sooner into the grave, too. They've been pointed out to you in this thread.

I missed that one. Please give me the post number where I can find those.



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-28-2014 9:53 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Coragyps, posted 03-04-2014 8:23 AM Eliyahu has responded
 Message 72 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-04-2014 12:18 PM Eliyahu has not yet responded
 Message 73 by Diomedes, posted 03-04-2014 2:23 PM Eliyahu has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 70 of 98 (721147)
03-04-2014 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Eliyahu
03-04-2014 12:08 AM


So still, in some countries the disease is wide spread, Millions of people suffering and slowly dying because of it.

You really should understand a subject before you started spouting off about it. Maybe you just have different meanings of words. Do some research on the disease and see if you can figure out what is wrong with the above statement.

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Eliyahu, posted 03-04-2014 12:08 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5273
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 71 of 98 (721149)
03-04-2014 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Eliyahu
03-04-2014 12:14 AM


Re: ``
The Israelites lived for centuries among the Egyptians, and they forced circumcision on the Egyptians. So the Egyptians got it from the Jews, not the other way around.

Source of this statement, please?
By that I mean a source beyond, "I said so."


"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Eliyahu, posted 03-04-2014 12:14 AM Eliyahu has responded

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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11540
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 72 of 98 (721168)
03-04-2014 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Eliyahu
03-04-2014 12:14 AM


Re: ``
The Israelites lived for centuries among the Egyptians, and they forced circumcision on the Egyptians. So the Egyptians got it from the Jews, not the other way around.

No, the Egyptians were already performing circumcisions before the Jews even got there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Eliyahu, posted 03-04-2014 12:14 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Diomedes, posted 03-04-2014 2:35 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 636
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 73 of 98 (721176)
03-04-2014 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Eliyahu
03-04-2014 12:14 AM


Re: ``
The Israelites lived for centuries among the Egyptians, and they forced circumcision on the Egyptians. So the Egyptians got it from the Jews, not the other way around.

The Israelites were the underclass in that society. Oftentimes being part of the slave labor pool. Exactly how did they force any procedure onto the overlords? If they had any sway in that society, Exodus would not have needed to occur.

Additionally, the earliest mention of any Jewish type faith or people was no earlier than 1500 BCE. Egypt predates that by over 1000 years or more. So you got your timelines mixed up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Eliyahu, posted 03-04-2014 12:14 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Eliyahu, posted 03-11-2014 12:39 AM Diomedes has responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 636
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 74 of 98 (721177)
03-04-2014 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by New Cat's Eye
03-04-2014 12:18 PM


History of Circumcision
From wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_male_circumcision

Main excerpt:

quote:
Sixth Dynasty (2345–2181 BC) tomb artwork in Egypt has been thought to be the oldest documentary evidence of circumcision, the most ancient depiction being a bas-relief from the necropolis at Saqqara (ca. 2400 BC) with the inscriptions reading: "The ointment is to make it acceptable." and "Hold him so that he does not fall". In the oldest written account, by an Egyptian named Uha, in the 23rd century BC, he describes a mass circumcision and boasts of his ability to stoically endure the pain: "When I was circumcised, together with one hundred and twenty men...there was none thereof who hit out, there was none thereof who was hit, and there was none thereof who scratched and there was none thereof who was scratched."

So if earliest known Hebrew and Jewish faith occurs no earlier than 1500 BCE and earliest known circumcision in Egypt dates to 2300 BCE, than it is impossible for the Jews to have taught or in any way influenced this procedure onto the Egyptians.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-04-2014 12:18 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

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 Message 75 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-04-2014 5:04 PM Diomedes has responded
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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11540
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 75 of 98 (721186)
03-04-2014 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Diomedes
03-04-2014 2:35 PM


Re: History of Circumcision
Yup, I read that page before I told that lying Jew what's up. It says that they even found a circumcised mummy. He's just trying to prop up his faith by dishonestly making it out to be more than it is.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Diomedes, posted 03-04-2014 2:35 PM Diomedes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Diomedes, posted 03-05-2014 1:54 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
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