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Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
lokiare
Member (Idle past 1028 days)
Posts: 69
Joined: 03-18-2014


Message 1 of 1309 (722722)
03-24-2014 2:41 PM


So if homosexuality doesn't fit into evolution why is it here at all? Wouldn't it have been evolved out by now?

Is homosexuality a choice or is it some biological process. If it is a biological process it should have been eradicated by evolution right?

If it is not a biological process and a result of choice and environment then it shouldn't be protected under the law any more than any other choice/environment option (like say vegetarianism). So which side does it fall under and what are the scientific and lawful implications?

I put forward several studies that have been done that show homosexuality is more by choice and environment and falls under a mindset rather than a biological imperative or being of genetic origin:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1300464/posts

What are your thoughts, counter evidence (but not inflammatory or insulting responses)?

Edited by lokiare, : Grammar.


Replies to this message:
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 Message 4 by Omnivorous, posted 03-24-2014 3:10 PM lokiare has responded
 Message 5 by Coyote, posted 03-24-2014 3:16 PM lokiare has responded
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 03-24-2014 3:17 PM lokiare has responded
 Message 7 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-24-2014 3:26 PM lokiare has responded
 Message 8 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2014 3:40 PM lokiare has responded
 Message 9 by Diomedes, posted 03-24-2014 4:23 PM lokiare has responded
 Message 10 by frako, posted 03-24-2014 5:58 PM lokiare has responded
 Message 11 by roxrkool, posted 03-24-2014 10:12 PM lokiare has responded
 Message 12 by Pressie, posted 03-25-2014 5:23 AM lokiare has responded
 Message 13 by Pressie, posted 03-25-2014 5:35 AM lokiare has responded
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2014 8:26 AM lokiare has responded
 Message 28 by RAZD, posted 03-25-2014 9:17 AM lokiare has responded
 Message 45 by Stile, posted 03-25-2014 2:26 PM lokiare has responded
 Message 75 by Taq, posted 03-25-2014 6:00 PM lokiare has responded

  
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1785
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 1309 (722724)
03-24-2014 3:00 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 3 of 1309 (722727)
03-24-2014 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by lokiare
03-24-2014 2:41 PM


Rights versus Responsibilities
lokiare writes:

Is homosexuality a choice or is it some biological process.

Both. As a believer, I think that homosexual gender attraction is not a choice. It is also not a sin. It just is.

Homosexual behavior, however, is a choice.

The debate centers on rights vs. responsibilities.

I can understand the secular argument that in essence says that no religion nor belief should legislate human morality. So in that context, and on behalf of a secular government, I advocate choice, consensus, and personal responsibility regarding behavior within society.

As a believer, I will say that I believe that many inborn traits of humanity....whatever they may be...are something we are born with, but have a responsibility to control.

If humans simply behaved according to biological urges, we wouldn't have that good of a society.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by lokiare, posted 03-24-2014 2:41 PM lokiare has responded

Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(5)
Message 4 of 1309 (722729)
03-24-2014 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by lokiare
03-24-2014 2:41 PM


Why are choices fair game?
lokiare writes:

If it is not a biological process and a result of choice and environment then it shouldn't be protected under the law any more than any other choice/environment option (like say vegetarianism).

As I recall, the Constitution goes to some lengths to protect my right to make my own choices.

I'd say that if meat folks began persecuting veggie folks (denying them equal access to marriage, housing, employment, etc.), then vegetarianism would need to be "protected under the law."

Could you explain why only those aspecst of human life that are seen as biologically determined should be protected against persecution and bigotry? Under your rubric, religious liberty would suffer considerable harm.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by lokiare, posted 03-24-2014 2:41 PM lokiare has responded

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 5642
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


(4)
Message 5 of 1309 (722730)
03-24-2014 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by lokiare
03-24-2014 2:41 PM


Why are some religious folks so worried about homosexuality anyway?

What business is it of theirs/yours?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 4526
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 6 of 1309 (722731)
03-24-2014 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by lokiare
03-24-2014 2:41 PM


Putting all academic, scientific and philosophical arguments aside for the moment, let me set you a challenge.

For me to win this challenge I'm relying on the probability of you being a heterosexual - and that you are male.

Go to any gay porn site. Do it late at night, possibly after you've had a beer or two and see if you can get an erection "by choice".

I've tried this and it doesn't work for me, but I'm a sample of one, so maybe it's not representative. (But I'm betting it is).

Report back and give us the result. (This is one experiment that you CAN try at home.)


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11232
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(2)
Message 7 of 1309 (722734)
03-24-2014 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by lokiare
03-24-2014 2:41 PM


So if homosexuality doesn't fit into evolution why is it here at all? Wouldn't it have been evolved out by now?

Well, gay people can still make babies. When a gay man puts his penis into a lesbian's vagina... well, I'm sure you know how babies are made.

Is homosexuality a choice or is it some biological process.

Sexual attraction sure feels biological to me. I mean, when my girlfriend gets naked in front of me, I just start getting an erection. I don't think about it. I don't choose it. It just happens.

If it is a biological process it should have been eradicated by evolution right?

No, not necessarily. Why?

If it is not a biological process and a result of choice and environment then it shouldn't be protected under the law any more than any other choice/environment option (like say vegetarianism).

Or like, say, your religion? And if its a result of your environment, then it isn't necessarily a choice. If you get hit by a car and you're disabled, then that wasn't a choice. But will still make sure businesses have an entrance ramp so you can wheel yourself in there, despite the fact that you were a product of your environment.

So which side does it fall under and what are the scientific and lawful implications?

Society is going the route of it legally being a protected class, like race or gender.

I put forward several studies that have been done that show homosexuality is more by choice and environment and falls under a mindset rather than a biological imperative or being of genetic origin:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1300464/posts

What evidence for homosexuality being a choice and being an environmental condition does that link have?

What are your thoughts, counter evidence (but not inflammatory or insulting responses)?

I'll need to see evidence, as opposed to a bare link, to figure out what kind of counter-evidence you'll need.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15735
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 8 of 1309 (722736)
03-24-2014 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by lokiare
03-24-2014 2:41 PM


So if homosexuality doesn't fit into evolution why is it here at all? Wouldn't it have been evolved out by now?

Is homosexuality a choice or is it some biological process. If it is a biological process it should have been eradicated by evolution right?

It's not a dominant genetic trait, is it? By your naive reasoning, we'd also be rid of sickle-cell anemia.

If it is not a biological process and a result of choice and environment then it shouldn't be protected under the law any more than any other choice/environment option (like say vegetarianism).

One could say the same of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the right to bear arms ...

And your right to be vegetarian is protected under the law. If you're a vegetarian, and someone tries to force a beefsteak down your throat, that's assault.

I put forward several studies that have been done that show homosexuality is more by choice and environment and falls under a mindset rather than a biological imperative or being of genetic origin:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1300464/posts

Ah, freerepublic, the source of all knowledge ...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by lokiare, posted 03-24-2014 2:41 PM lokiare has responded

Replies to this message:
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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 588
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 3.7


(5)
Message 9 of 1309 (722742)
03-24-2014 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by lokiare
03-24-2014 2:41 PM


Research Studies
So if homosexuality doesn't fit into evolution why is it here at all? Wouldn't it have been evolved out by now?

There have actually been several studies on this topic. I provided a few links below, but to summarize:

There is a selection component for homosexuality when you factor in social constructs of species. So far as I understand, homosexuality exists in species that have a social component to their organizational makeup; i.e. they live and work in groups.

The selective advantage of homosexuality can often be summed up by the 'Gay Uncle' notion. In a situation where a specific family has a gene or specific disposition to produce gay offspring, the likelihood of that offspring surviving increases because of the added benefit of having an additional male member of the group protecting a sibling's offspring. This can be expanded on to include the 'Lesbian Aunt' notion where a gay female member can assist in child rearing.

An important notion to remember: homosexuality has been observed in species outside of the human race. Macaque monkeys are a good example. Which means it is both natural and must have some specific evolutionary advantage.

Links:

http://www.newscientist.com/...mosexuality.html#.UzCTFahdV8E

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...s/PMC1691850/pdf/15539346.pdf

http://www.fed.cuhk.edu.hk/.../evo%20homosexual%20review.pdf


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frako
Member
Posts: 2681
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


(3)
Message 10 of 1309 (722756)
03-24-2014 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by lokiare
03-24-2014 2:41 PM


So if homosexuality doesn't fit into evolution why is it here at all? Wouldn't it have been evolved out by now?

well if you take a the human species as an example for the past 1000 or more years just about everywhere on the planet gays where killed, tortured and or imprisoned. So naturaly people hid their sexuality, got married and had kids to show see im not gay im just in touch with my feminine side LOL. So all that fighting against gays probably increased the gay population in humans.

As fare as gay animals go, take a look at bees or ants most of their population cannot breed yet they still exist as they serve a purpose in their social structure, gays in a wolfpack for instance increase the odds of their siblings surviving, as they have a strong male member that will not weaken the pack with fights over females. and even though they do not pass their genes on directly their closest relatives do more often and a proportion of them will be gay, as we know its not a gene itself that determines "gayness" it also has to do with the environment the genes just increase the chance.

If it is not a biological process and a result of choice and environment then it shouldn't be protected under the law any more than any other choice/environment option (like say vegetarianism). So which side does it fall under and what are the scientific and lawful implications?

It is a biological process in short during development, a lack of some hormones and possibly other environmental factors influence the development of the part of the brain that determines who you are attracted to. Think you'r brain was wired to find girls/boys attractive its not really a choice if you think it is watch a gay porno and see if you can get a hadron.

I put forward several studies that have been done that show homosexuality is more by choice and environment and falls under a mindset rather than a biological imperative or being of genetic origin:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1300464/posts

And i challenge you to watch a gay porno with a couple of your sex, and get aroused by choice. And no cheating by thinking of girls think of men. If you can manage that you are either gay/bisexual or you have a point.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 276 days)
Posts: 1493
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


(2)
Message 11 of 1309 (722772)
03-24-2014 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by lokiare
03-24-2014 2:41 PM


choice??
I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can possibly conclude that sexual attraction is a choice. Unless YOU personally feel attraction for both sexes. Do you? If so, then you are bi-sexual. Whether you acknowledge the fact or not.

I do not recall one time in my entire life where I made the deliberate choice not to feel attracted to a person of the same sex. That makes me a heterosexual. I have found many of my sex attractive, but have never felt any desire to take it further than pure appreciation for a beautiful human. Hell, I can't even control the attractions I feel for the opposite sex.


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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1549
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 12 of 1309 (722786)
03-25-2014 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by lokiare
03-24-2014 2:41 PM


lokiare

What's your opinion on Intersex people? Do they have a choice about their sexuality? Are Intersex people sinning just by being born Intersex? Are Intersex people being born to be Intersex not a result of genetics?

Hope you do realise that the Theory of Evolution can explain Intersex people very well. Genetics.

This makes me think that there is a genetically induced rainbow of sexuality stretching from being completely heterosexual through bisexual through homosexual trough to being Intersexed.

No choice involved in sexuality.

(Before you go off on a tangent, Intersex is not the same as Transexual).

Edited by Pressie, : Changed sentence "This makes me think that there is a genetically induced rainbow of sexuality stretching from being completely heterosexual through bisexual through homosexual trough to being Intersexed."


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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1549
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 13 of 1309 (722787)
03-25-2014 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by lokiare
03-24-2014 2:41 PM


lokiare writes:

So if homosexuality doesn't fit into evolution why is it here at all?

Homosexuality sure does fit into the theory of evolution. It's very basic. All sexually reproducing eukaryotic organisms derive from a common ancestor which was a single celled eukaryotic species. That species reproduced both sexually and asexually, depending on the conditions being favourable for asexual reproduction and other conditions being favourable for sexual reproduction.

Easy.

Now you explain how Intersex people fit into men being poofed into existence and women being taken from a rib of some alledged man and turned into a woman. Please explain the differences in DNA in men and woman that way.


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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 24384
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 14 of 1309 (722788)
03-25-2014 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Pressie
03-25-2014 5:35 AM


The problem with your theory is that homosexuals don't reproduce, period.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1549
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 15 of 1309 (722789)
03-25-2014 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
03-25-2014 5:43 AM


Faith writes:

The problem with your theory is that homosexuals don't reproduce, period


Lots of problems with his statement. Apart from the one you noticed; another one is some heterosexual people sometimes do have Intersex children.
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