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Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13313
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 1231 of 1309 (748203)
01-23-2015 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1230 by Dr Adequate
01-23-2015 1:05 PM


Re: Second Thoughts
But is he being discriminated against because of his religious beliefs ? This case is much less clear-cut than the cases Faith complained about.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1230 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-23-2015 1:05 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1233 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-23-2015 2:11 PM PaulK has responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 8 days)
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 1232 of 1309 (748204)
01-23-2015 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1230 by Dr Adequate
01-23-2015 1:05 PM


Re: Second Thoughts
Dr A writes:

But he's doing it, and rather well. He wants a cake that expresses his deeply-held religious beliefs. If he is refused, he is being discriminated against because the owners of the cake shop don't like his religious beliefs. There is apparently a law in Colorado protecting him from that. I say that this law goes too far.

Won't the fact that she offered a pastry bag and frosting for him to add the offensive slogans onto the cake himself show that she was still willing to provide services, but not breach her own personal ethics. It seems like this baker is going out of her way to still provide the service in a fashion that could be mutually beneficial. He receives the products he paid for, including the means to add any slogans he wishes with the frosting provided and she is making a sale without having to sacrifice her ethical viewpoint. This seems in complete counterpoint to the instances of bakeries refusing to bake a cake for a same sex marriage. In those cases, they suggest the couple go to another bakery, while in this case the woman still worked to find a solution that would work for both parties involved.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1230 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-23-2015 1:05 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15972
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 1233 of 1309 (748206)
01-23-2015 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1231 by PaulK
01-23-2015 1:48 PM


Re: Second Thoughts
But is he being discriminated against because of his religious beliefs ?

Well, yes he is. He wanted the words "God hates gays" on his cake, which is his sincere religious belief, and they denied it because it contravenes their own beliefs. If he'd asked for a cake saying "Flibberty wibberty bibberty bobberty boo", then that would have been equally stupid, but no-one would have denied it to him. They refused him the cake because they didn't want to get involved with what he actually did want to say. Surely that is their right.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1231 by PaulK, posted 01-23-2015 1:48 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1234 by PaulK, posted 01-23-2015 2:26 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

PaulK
Member
Posts: 13313
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 1234 of 1309 (748207)
01-23-2015 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1233 by Dr Adequate
01-23-2015 2:11 PM


Re: Second Thoughts
The point is that nowhere have we seen that the right to equal services goes so far as to demand the right to have absolutely any decoration on the cake desired.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1233 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-23-2015 2:11 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 1235 of 1309 (748232)
01-23-2015 6:08 PM


The artwork and words on a cake are speech covered by the First Amendment. You cannot force someone to speak against their will or their conscience.

In the gay-cake scenarios the bakers were refusing to do business with someone because they were gay. They had the right to refuse to decorate the cake with two grooms, maybe, but a flat refusal of service to any class is forbidden.

In the bigot-cake scenario the service is not refused. The offensive nature of the speech on the cake, which no one can force the baker to speak, was accommodated in what seems to me to be a reasonable way.

I cannot imagine any but the most blatantly biased and bigoted of arbiters allowing this complaint to proceed.


Replies to this message:
 Message 1236 by Faith, posted 01-23-2015 9:31 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Faith
Member
Posts: 26616
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1236 of 1309 (748242)
01-23-2015 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1235 by AZPaul3
01-23-2015 6:08 PM


In the gay-cake scenarios the bakers were refusing to do business with someone because they were gay. They had the right to refuse to decorate the cake with two grooms, maybe, but a flat refusal of service to any class is forbidden.

If you are talking about the instances of Christian business people, none of them denied general service to gays, a "class of people," only services that support gay marriage which they oppose.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1235 by AZPaul3, posted 01-23-2015 6:08 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1237 by jar, posted 01-23-2015 9:48 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1238 by ringo, posted 01-24-2015 11:38 AM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29623
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 1237 of 1309 (748245)
01-23-2015 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1236 by Faith
01-23-2015 9:31 PM


support?
Faith writes:

If you are talking about the instances of Christian business people, none of them denied general service to gays, a "class of people," only services that support gay marriage which they oppose.

HUH?

How does a wedding cake support a marriage? Are marriages without a cake still valid?

I don't think you have ever explained that to us.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1236 by Faith, posted 01-23-2015 9:31 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1271 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-26-2015 12:53 PM jar has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 13885
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1238 of 1309 (748282)
01-24-2015 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1236 by Faith
01-23-2015 9:31 PM


Faith writes:

If you are talking about the instances of Christian business people, none of them denied general service to gays, a "class of people," only services that support gay marriage which they oppose.


There's a difference between the cake and the words on the cake. If you refused to bake a cake for a gay wedding, I'd revoke your business license. If you refused to write "God loves fags" on a cake, I'd support you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1236 by Faith, posted 01-23-2015 9:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1239 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 12:21 PM ringo has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 26616
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1239 of 1309 (748284)
01-24-2015 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1238 by ringo
01-24-2015 11:38 AM


Right, of course you would. So you'll drive all Christians out of business, which is at least along the lines of what prophecy tells us to expect.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1238 by ringo, posted 01-24-2015 11:38 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1240 by ringo, posted 01-24-2015 12:24 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1242 by jar, posted 01-24-2015 12:38 PM Faith has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13885
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1240 of 1309 (748286)
01-24-2015 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1239 by Faith
01-24-2015 12:21 PM


Faith writes:

So you'll drive all Christians out of business....


No, the bigots will drive themselves out of business, by violating the community standards, just like they would if they operated an unhygienic kitchen. The Christians will do unto others as they would have others do unto them.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1239 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 12:21 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1241 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 12:29 PM ringo has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 26616
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1241 of 1309 (748287)
01-24-2015 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1240 by ringo
01-24-2015 12:24 PM


Of course, "bigots" according to you are those who refuse to give up the tenets of their religion, as long as it's the orthodox Biblical Christian religion. But you wouldn't call a Muslim a bigot for refusing to give up FGM would you? Of course not, because YOU're the bigot with the irrational standards, who gives yourself the right to tell us what we should believe, otherwise known as PC.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1240 by ringo, posted 01-24-2015 12:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1265 by ringo, posted 01-25-2015 1:11 PM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29623
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 1242 of 1309 (748289)
01-24-2015 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1239 by Faith
01-24-2015 12:21 PM


more bullshit Faith
Faith writes:

Right, of course you would. So you'll drive all Christians out of business, which is at least along the lines of what prophecy tells us to expect.

That's just more at best, bullshit, in reality lies from you Faith. It would drive no one out of business and only prevent bigots from discriminating against innocent people.

Remember Faith, not all Christians oppose same sex marriage or condemn homosexuality; it is only the Christian Cult of Ignorance and "Biblical Christians" that deny what the Bible actually says that hold such sill positions.

Have you ever tried to support how a wedding cake actually supports or validates a wedding?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1239 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 12:21 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1243 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 12:40 PM jar has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 26616
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1243 of 1309 (748291)
01-24-2015 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1242 by jar
01-24-2015 12:38 PM


Re: more bullshit Faith
Sure, if YOU are defining what a Christian is then you don't have to notice when the orthodox Christians are driven out of business and you can content yourself with dismissing us as bigots. Very effective method of bigotry on YOUR part, I congratulate you all.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1242 by jar, posted 01-24-2015 12:38 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1244 by jar, posted 01-24-2015 12:50 PM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29623
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 1244 of 1309 (748293)
01-24-2015 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1243 by Faith
01-24-2015 12:40 PM


Re: more bullshit Faith
Faith writes:

Sure, if YOU are defining what a Christian is then you don't have to notice when the orthodox Christians are driven out of business and you can content yourself with dismissing us as bigots. Very effective method of bigotry on YOUR part, I congratulate you all.

You just can't resist posting stuff just to make you look silly can you Faith?

I'm not the one defining who a Christian is, in fact I am the one who accepts that a Christian is a Christian if they are a member of one of the Chapters of Club Christian.

But you claim that your Chapter of Club Christian is orthodox while other Chapters are not. Which of us is defining what a Christian is?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1243 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 12:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1245 by Faith, posted 01-24-2015 1:09 PM jar has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 26616
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1245 of 1309 (748298)
01-24-2015 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1244 by jar
01-24-2015 12:50 PM


Re: more bullshit Faith
I didn't say I'm NOT defining what a Christian is, but it's YOUR definition that turns us into bigots and gets our businesses closed.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1244 by jar, posted 01-24-2015 12:50 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1246 by jar, posted 01-24-2015 1:25 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1247 by AZPaul3, posted 01-24-2015 2:30 PM Faith has responded

  
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