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Author Topic:   Creation Museum a House of Cards Sitting on Old Old Earth Rocks
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19080
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 46 of 61 (735519)
08-16-2014 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by JonF
08-16-2014 8:08 PM


Engineers are not scientists
To be fair, you need a good grounding and more in many relevant areas of science ...

Science is the art of understanding life, the universe, and everything ...

Engineering is the art of making practical use of scientific knowledge.

Yes you need a basic foundation in what science says, but you still are not a practicing scientist.

Engineers don't need an understanding of how things work, they just need a practical application, and can derive that via approximations and parametric equations ... and then throw on a factor of safety to account for unknowns.

If it works you use it, if it doesn't work you try again. Newton's gravity is good enough to get to mars, so you don't need to figure dark stuffs and relativity.

When a bridge falls down then you add another factor of safety to the next design.

see Working Hypothesis -- what is the value? -- engineers don't need a falsifiable hypothesis, just a working one.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by JonF, posted 08-16-2014 8:08 PM JonF has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13723
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 47 of 61 (735540)
08-17-2014 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by mram10
08-16-2014 4:02 PM


mram10 writes:

Just so I have it right... if these doctors are against the theory of evolution, then they are not "real" scientists.


No, you have it wrong. There is no correlation between them being against evolution and being real scientists.

If they were doing real science that disproved evolution, you might have a point. But no matter how many letters they have after their names, they are not getting their anti-evolution ideas from science.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by mram10, posted 08-16-2014 4:02 PM mram10 has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9993
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 48 of 61 (735542)
08-17-2014 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by RAZD
08-16-2014 8:33 PM


Re: Engineers are not scientists
Science is the art of understanding life, the universe, and everything ...

Engineering is the art of making practical use of scientific knowledge.

Yes you need a basic foundation in what science says, but you still are not a practicing scientist.

The above reasoning is wrong. A scientist is someone who practices the scientific method in a field in which he has the requisite expertise to address a particular inquiry. A PhD in mechanical engineering would be expected to have sufficient academic background necessary to conduct scientific inquiries within his particular field of expertise some of which might easily be classified as basic science. Whether or not Dr. Brown is or is not a scientist would depend on whether he carries out such inquiries or not.

What we can say is that Walter Brown's credentials alone don't make him a practicing scientist. And we can easily criticize his work on Creation Science without even looking at his credentials.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by RAZD, posted 08-16-2014 8:33 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2014 5:02 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 50 by jar, posted 08-17-2014 5:09 PM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 58 by RAZD, posted 08-18-2014 2:54 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5100
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 49 of 61 (735543)
08-17-2014 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
08-17-2014 4:53 PM


Re: Engineers are not scientists
Dunno what happens in the USA, but here in Blighty, engineers receive BScs (Bachelor of Science degrees) and would be astonished to hear that they are not considered to be scientists.

In fact they actually have to a eat botanists in their second year and form a box girder bridge out of their rib cages.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 08-17-2014 4:53 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by NoNukes, posted 08-17-2014 5:17 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 59 by RAZD, posted 08-18-2014 3:03 AM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29434
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 50 of 61 (735544)
08-17-2014 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
08-17-2014 4:53 PM


Re: Engineers are not scientists
No Creationist can ever be a scientist or actually use the scientific method since they begin with a conclusion and simply attempt to provide support for that conclusion.

Creation Scientists are liars by definition.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 08-17-2014 4:53 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9993
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 51 of 61 (735546)
08-17-2014 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Tangle
08-17-2014 5:02 PM


Re: Engineers are not scientists
Dunno what happens in the USA, but here in Blighty, engineers receive BScs (Bachelor of Science degrees) and would be astonished to hear that they are not considered to be scientists.

I would find it surprising and a bit pompous to hear someone with a BS degree in any subject calling themselves a scientist simply by way of having received such a degree. That is certainly not what is done in the US. Quite frankly, even a BS degree in biology, chemistry, or physics does not make you a scientist.

My understanding is that just as in the US, British schools offer BSc degrees in subjects like economics and mathematics.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2014 5:02 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2014 5:46 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5100
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 52 of 61 (735547)
08-17-2014 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by NoNukes
08-17-2014 5:17 PM


Re: Engineers are not scientists
NoNukes writes:

I would find it surprising and a bit pompous to hear someone with a BS degree in any subject calling themselves a scientist simply by way of having received such a degree. To my mind that's a

That is certainly not what is done in the US. Quite frankly, even a BS degree in biology, chemistry, or physics does not make you a scientist.

Well people here at EVC tend to take the tautological view that a scientist is someone who practices science and then use it as a way of dismissing opinions from educated people who have studied science but don't practice it. That's just a nonsense, good ideas and argument can come from anywhere - they just need to be backed by reason and evidence.

It's actually more usual for an engineer to get a B.Eng than a Bsc. I have a mate who's a Civil Engineer and designs and build bridges, power stations and airports for a living, he wouldn't know which way up to hold a test tube but he's sure as hell a scientist.

I would also say that my other engineering friend who is an Aeronautical Engineering and designs flight simulators for British Aerospace also probably thinks of himself as a scientist. And I bloody sure I do too.

Economists and mathematicians can and do get B.Scs. I'd consider them scientists too - and why not? They all follow rational, objective models in trying to understand our world.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by NoNukes, posted 08-17-2014 5:17 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by NoNukes, posted 08-17-2014 7:27 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 54 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-17-2014 7:31 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 55 by NoNukes, posted 08-17-2014 11:05 PM Tangle has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9993
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 53 of 61 (735549)
08-17-2014 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Tangle
08-17-2014 5:46 PM


Re: Engineers are not scientists
Well people here at EVC tend to take the tautological view that a scientist is someone who practices science and then use it as a way of dismissing opinions from educated people who have studied science but don't practice it. That's just a nonsense, good ideas and argument can come from anywhere - they just need to be backed by reason and evidence.

That is of course true. But generally speaking, people new graduates with a BS degree even in scientific disciplines do not work as scientists. They are mostly working under scientists.

It's actually more usual for an engineer to get a B.Eng than a Bsc.

There really is no distinction between a B.Eng and a BS in Engineering. Schools have some leeway to call their degrees what they will, and there seems to be a lot more variation in what UK schools and others do compared to what US schools do. BS degrees are generally more rigorous than BA degrees, at least at schools that offer both.

and then use it as a way of dismissing opinions from educated people who have studied science but don't practice it

I'm not sure what point you are making here. I am certainly not advocating dismissing Dr. Brown for not being a scientist simply because he has an engineering degree. I have actually made the argument that we should not do that.

I would also say that my other engineering friend who is an Aeronautical Engineering and designs flight simulators for British Aerospace also probably thinks of himself as a scientist. And I bloody sure I do too.

Your description does not advance or provide an argument that your friend is a scientist. But what of it? Not being a scientist is no insult to an engineer. It is only an insult to people who are attempting to do science and have failed to do so.

I graduated with a Bachelor of Science degree in Electrical Engineering and Physics. I have never considered myself a scientist because I generally don't conduct scientific investigations. But that is not the same thing as saying that I don't approach scientific manners in a scientific method or that my thought processes are somehow inferior to those of scientists


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2014 5:46 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15960
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 54 of 61 (735550)
08-17-2014 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Tangle
08-17-2014 5:46 PM


Re: Engineers are not scientists
Economists and mathematicians can and do get B.Scs. I'd consider them scientists too - and why not? They all follow rational, objective models in trying to understand our world.

Though I like to think that mathematicians are wrong less often.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2014 5:46 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2014 2:09 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9993
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 55 of 61 (735558)
08-17-2014 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Tangle
08-17-2014 5:46 PM


Re: Engineers are not scientists
Economists and mathematicians can and do get B.Scs. I'd consider them scientists too - and why not? They all follow rational, objective models in trying to understand our world.

The reason why not is because following 'rational objective models in trying to understand our world' is not the definition of scientist. Your definition might exclude astrology, but it would not exclude numerology in general or ID. Not all logical pursuits are sciences.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2014 5:46 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2014 2:16 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5100
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 56 of 61 (735565)
08-18-2014 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Dr Adequate
08-17-2014 7:31 PM


Re: Engineers are not scientists
Dr. A writes:


Though I like to think that mathematicians are wrong less often.

Ah, yes, but that wouldn't be thinking scientifically would it? Though I'm sure you're right. Perhaps economics is just harder......

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-17-2014 7:31 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5100
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 57 of 61 (735566)
08-18-2014 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by NoNukes
08-17-2014 11:05 PM


Re: Engineers are not scientists
NoNukes writes:

The reason why not is because following 'rational objective models in trying to understand our world' is not the definition of scientist. Your definition might exclude astrology, but it would not exclude numerology in general or ID. Not all logical pursuits are sciences.

It would excluded both, because in neither do their conclusions match their evidence. But I'm not going to go any further with this - torturing the meaning of words is as much use as arguing about the smells of an angel's fart.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by NoNukes, posted 08-17-2014 11:05 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19080
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 58 of 61 (735569)
08-18-2014 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
08-17-2014 4:53 PM


Re: Engineers are not scientists
See Message 18 on Working Hypothesis -- what is the value?

Then this thread can return to the topic of Creation Museums and the humorously ill-equipped under-educated and delusional people running them ...

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 08-17-2014 4:53 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19080
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 59 of 61 (735570)
08-18-2014 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Tangle
08-17-2014 5:02 PM


Re: Engineers are still not scientists
Dunno what happens in the USA, but here in Blighty, engineers receive BScs (Bachelor of Science degrees) and would be astonished to hear that they are not considered to be scientists.

Curiously, I have three degrees ... a bachelor degree, a masters degree ... and an associate of science degree in design, so does that make me a design scientist? ... yet I don't consider myself a scientist (in spite of doing many controlled experiments), rather I consider myself to be scientifically literate, educated in the practical application of knowledge derived by science.

The scientific method involve falsification tests, and the experiments done by engineers don't really have falsification tests involved, so strictly speaking, while they may run experiments and adopt changes, it isn't a full application of the scientific method (see Working Hypothesis -- what is the value? Message 18 for more).

In fact they actually have to a eat botanists in their second year and form a box girder bridge out of their rib cages.

Done that, tastes like chicken ...

Edited by RAZD, : clrty


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2014 5:02 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2014 5:34 AM RAZD has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5100
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 60 of 61 (735574)
08-18-2014 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by RAZD
08-18-2014 3:03 AM


Re: Engineers are still not scientists
I would say that an engineer carries out an empirical test of an scientific theory every time he builds a bridge.

But this is all just 'no true Scotsman' stuff.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by RAZD, posted 08-18-2014 3:03 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by RAZD, posted 08-18-2014 8:11 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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