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Author Topic:   Unjust Deserts - Gar Alperovitz & Lew Daly
Phat
Member
Posts: 9428
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 31 of 53 (723629)
04-04-2014 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by ringo
04-04-2014 12:35 PM


Re: Share and Share Alike
well...I did just now look up your role model, Dr.Norman Bethune. Seems he was an ardent communist/socialist---married his wife and spent most of her inheritance on a grand tour of Europe...then they divorced. I bet she was convinced he was nuts. He did champion the cause for the poor and often gave them free medical care, however.

Seems he wrote a poem for the Spanish Civil War in 1937:

quote:
And the same pallid moon tonight,
Which rides so quietly, clear and high,
The mirror of our pale and troubled gaze
Raised to a cool Canadian sky.

Above the shattered Spanish troops
Last night rose low and wild and red,
Reflecting back from her illumined shield
The blood bespattered faces of the dead.

To that pale disc we raise our clenched fists,
And to those nameless dead our vows renew,
Comrades, who fought for freedom and the future world,
Who died for us, we will remember you.


Seems he saw equality as the only true freedom. I doubt that I would have the guts to follow Norman Bethune...much less Jesus. Besides...obedience is better than sacrifice...im just waiting for God to make me obedient enough to live a life of sacrifice.


When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 04-04-2014 12:35 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 04-04-2014 12:49 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13194
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 32 of 53 (723631)
04-04-2014 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
04-04-2014 12:43 PM


Re: Share and Share Alike
Phat writes:

...obedience is better than sacrifice...


I'll quote it again:
quote:
Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Obedience and sacrifice are the same thing.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 04-04-2014 12:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 04-04-2014 6:05 PM ringo has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 53 (723636)
04-04-2014 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
04-04-2014 12:05 PM


Re: Share and Share Alike
We would never get governments to follow Jesus mandates,however.

Why not?

Governments already facilitates the creation of massive amounts of wealth. And they facilitate the accumulation of that wealth into the hands of a few people. Certainly a single man, such as Bill Gates, could not defend his wealth against all the millions of people who might contest him for it in a world without government and the protection of property rights it creates through its monopoly on force.

So, your position that governments have no role to play in determining who gets what is dead: the primary function of governments (past and present) is to determine who gets what and to protect that determination through use of force.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 04-04-2014 12:05 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 04-04-2014 6:11 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 04-04-2014 6:12 PM Jon has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9428
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 34 of 53 (723640)
04-04-2014 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
04-04-2014 12:49 PM


Re: Share and Share Alike
Its all well and good to quote Matthew and yes, I do believe that Jesus said it...but do you realistically expect someone--anyone--to sell everything they have and walk around helping people? Without government welfare? Health care? a car to drive? Without getting paid anything? Lets be practical here...

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 04-04-2014 12:49 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 04-05-2014 11:39 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9428
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 35 of 53 (723641)
04-04-2014 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Jon
04-04-2014 2:45 PM


Re: Share and Share Alike
We would never get governments to follow Jesus mandates,however.

[qs=Jon]Why not?

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Jon, posted 04-04-2014 2:45 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9428
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 36 of 53 (723642)
04-04-2014 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Jon
04-04-2014 2:45 PM


Re: Share and Share Alike
We would never get governments to follow Jesus mandates,however.

Jon writes:

Why not?


First of all, elected officials are never elected due to the will of an overwhelming majority of the people. Second, money and power are responsible for many of the elected officials...not simple people power---and we all know the frequent deadlocks in Congress and the Senate. My point is, any change encounters some resistance and a change of the order of magnitude suggested in this book would quite likely encounter resistance to the point of violence. Special interests would seek to protect the stuff they have---(look at the occupy wall street movements as a small tip of the ice burg. ) The moral argument is basically sound, yet will require a voluntary cooperation of the people. Aint nobody gonna start redistributing stuff on a massive scale that wont likely get shot in so doing.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Jon, posted 04-04-2014 2:45 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Jon, posted 04-04-2014 10:47 PM Phat has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 53 (723646)
04-04-2014 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
04-04-2014 6:12 PM


Re: Share and Share Alike
Aint nobody gonna start redistributing stuff on a massive scale that wont likely get shot in so doing.

Except world governments, who, as I've said, have a monopoly on things like shooting folk.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 04-04-2014 6:12 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 04-05-2014 2:11 AM Jon has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9428
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 38 of 53 (723649)
04-05-2014 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Jon
04-04-2014 10:47 PM


The Hillbilly Militia
Jon writes:

Except world governments, who, as I've said, have a monopoly on things like shooting folk.

This gets back to guns. Americans own far and away more guns than any other nation on earth. They won't let them be taken away---not all of them, at any rate---and even if our military did try and enforce law on its own citizens, these folks would not obey peacefully. In addition, much of our military is made up of working class citizens who likely wouldnt go against their own people. Of all of the "Arab Springs" and uprisings globally---none would hold a candle to the raw outrage and energy of the home bred folk of rural America. To sum it up: No government would ever tame the wild, rebellious, and eternally free and feisty spirit of the Americans.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Jon, posted 04-04-2014 10:47 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Jon, posted 04-05-2014 11:36 AM Phat has responded
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 04-05-2014 11:43 AM Phat has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 53 (723656)
04-05-2014 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
04-05-2014 2:11 AM


Re: The Hillbilly Militia
This gets back to guns. Americans own far and away more guns than any other nation on earth. They won't let them be taken away---not all of them, at any rate---and even if our military did try and enforce law on its own citizens, these folks would not obey peacefully. In addition, much of our military is made up of working class citizens who likely wouldnt go against their own people. Of all of the "Arab Springs" and uprisings globally---none would hold a candle to the raw outrage and energy of the home bred folk of rural America. To sum it up: No government would ever tame the wild, rebellious, and eternally free and feisty spirit of the Americans.

Where did you pull this from, Phat?

Do you have any evidence for this nonsense?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 04-05-2014 2:11 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 04-05-2014 11:41 AM Jon has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13194
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 40 of 53 (723657)
04-05-2014 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
04-04-2014 6:05 PM


Re: Share and Share Alike
Phat writes:

Its all well and good to quote Matthew and yes, I do believe that Jesus said it...but do you realistically expect someone--anyone--to sell everything they have and walk around helping people?


The question is: Does Jesus expect it?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 04-04-2014 6:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9428
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 41 of 53 (723658)
04-05-2014 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jon
04-05-2014 11:36 AM


Re: The Hillbilly Militia
I obviously have no evidence for how the American people would behave. I do know the mindset of many people, however and I do know that they would resist a world government. In addition, it is a fact that Americans own far more guns than any other urban or rural population.

Do you see any reason why we would obey such a government? (Like the comical notion that it would actually give us what we want?)


When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Jon, posted 04-05-2014 11:36 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 04-05-2014 10:00 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13194
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 42 of 53 (723659)
04-05-2014 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
04-05-2014 2:11 AM


Re: The Hillbilly Militia
Phat writes:

... the wild, rebellious, and eternally free and feisty spirit of the Americans.


That's a myth.

People don't fight for privilege. They buy it - and they pay others to protect it for them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 04-05-2014 2:11 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 04-05-2014 11:49 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9428
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 43 of 53 (723661)
04-05-2014 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
04-05-2014 11:43 AM


Re: The Hillbilly Militia
ringo writes:

People don't fight for privilege. They buy it - and they pay others to protect it for them.

Thus, in any future scenario involving a world government bent on redistribution of "stuff", there would be an army bought and paid for by the wealthy (who own the most stuff) and there would be an uprising of the masses who---in America at least---own much less stuff than do the wealthy yet far more stuff than the average global citizen. A paid army versus citizens holding on to what they have.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 04-05-2014 11:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 04-05-2014 11:56 AM Phat has responded
 Message 45 by Omnivorous, posted 04-05-2014 12:40 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13194
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 44 of 53 (723662)
04-05-2014 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
04-05-2014 11:49 AM


Re: The Hillbilly Militia
Phat writes:

... there would be an army bought and paid for by the wealthy...


Yes.

Phat writes:

... and there would be an uprising of the masses who---in America at least---own much less stuff than do the wealthy yet far more stuff than the average global citizen.


No. They'd clamour for more police protection but very few of them would actually do anything. Your average "feisty" American gun-owner might shoot at somebody taking his stuff - and kill his own children in the process - but you'll never see an "uprising of the masses".

Phat writes:

... in any future scenario involving a world government ...


Who said anything about a world government?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 04-05-2014 11:49 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 04-05-2014 5:54 PM ringo has responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 409 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(5)
Message 45 of 53 (723664)
04-05-2014 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
04-05-2014 11:49 AM


Re: The Hillbilly Militia
Phat writes:

Thus, in any future scenario involving a world government bent on redistribution of "stuff", there would be an army bought and paid for by the wealthy (who own the most stuff) and there would be an uprising of the masses who---in America at least---own much less stuff than do the wealthy yet far more stuff than the average global citizen. A paid army versus citizens holding on to what they have.

During the past few decades, the wealthy have accomplished one of the greatest redistributions of stuff ever.

The feisty Americans who lost the most cheered them on.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 04-05-2014 11:49 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
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