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Author Topic:   Book "The Evolution of Genesis"
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11440
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 16 of 27 (724059)
04-11-2014 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Charles Munroe
04-11-2014 8:36 PM


Terrible thing to do? What is terrible about attempting to put an end to a needless controversy.

Bastardizing the message.

Creationism fosters ignorance and a bigoted world view.

The end doesn't justify the means.


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 Message 15 by Charles Munroe, posted 04-11-2014 8:36 PM Charles Munroe has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13203
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 17 of 27 (724085)
04-12-2014 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Charles Munroe
04-11-2014 8:36 PM


Charles Munroe writes:

What is terrible about attempting to put an end to a needless controversy.


You won't end the controversy by warping the Bible to fit science. What you need to do is throw out the Bible as a source of real-world information. (That's likely to stir up more controversy.)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Charles Munroe, posted 04-11-2014 8:36 PM Charles Munroe has not yet responded

  
Charles Munroe
Member (Idle past 1078 days)
Posts: 40
From: Simi Valley, CA USA
Joined: 09-07-2003


Message 18 of 27 (724102)
04-12-2014 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Charles Munroe
04-11-2014 8:36 PM


It has been tried, throwing out the Bible, and it doesn't resonate with the 46% that believe in creationism. Critical thinking is in short supply in this country. The best approach is to allow the 46% to have their Bible and accept evolution . Not the best solution perhaps but the only one that has much of a chance of success.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 04-13-2014 3:08 PM Charles Munroe has not yet responded

    
Charles Munroe
Member (Idle past 1078 days)
Posts: 40
From: Simi Valley, CA USA
Joined: 09-07-2003


Message 19 of 27 (724103)
04-12-2014 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Taq
04-11-2014 5:22 PM


Some stories in the Old Testament are breeding grounds for atheism. A God in the Passover story that torments and then kills people that have no power to release the Hebrew slaves; a God that drowns little children and infants to get rid of evil adults that he was responsible for creating by his massive screw up in the Garden of Eden. The atheist I have talked say these are examples of why they rejected the Bible; a God that acts like he is not quite all there. In my book I try to show that many events in the Bible are real but have been exaggerated by the author.
The ten plagues were brought on by the eruption of Santorin in 1628 BCE; a natural event that God had nothing to do with. Interestingly the Bible tells the time of year the event took place, April-May, Read your Bible and see if you can spot the clues.
Did God murder the first born of the Passover story? Most likely it was disease caused by rotting carcasses. If the events are carefully analyzed it could also suggest a mass poisoning arranged by Moses. I prefer the former.
Did God drown all of humanity in a worldwide flood? The Bible say no. Read Genesis 7:21, 7:24 and 8:11 and then ask what would the condition of the olive tree after five or more months submerged in water. Any arborist will inform you that the tree would be dead and leafless.
Want to understand the Bible? Then learn to approach it like a detective. Gather evidence and let the evidence lead you to a conclusion rather than accepting literally what the author says. The author is a human in an age of gross ignorance of the natural world.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Taq, posted 04-11-2014 5:22 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Taq, posted 04-14-2014 6:05 PM Charles Munroe has not yet responded
 Message 27 by MFFJM2, posted 04-17-2014 1:45 PM Charles Munroe has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13203
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 20 of 27 (724142)
04-13-2014 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Charles Munroe
04-12-2014 3:04 PM


Charles Munroe writes:

It has been tried, throwing out the Bible, and it doesn't resonate with the 46% that believe in creationism.


Who cares?

Charles Munroe writes:

The best approach is to allow the 46% to have their Bible and accept evolution .


They won't though. Creationists aren't going to change their view of the Bible just because you want them to.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Charles Munroe, posted 04-12-2014 3:04 PM Charles Munroe has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1627
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 21 of 27 (724164)
04-14-2014 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Charles Munroe
04-09-2014 5:32 PM


Charles didn't expect to find a specialist on Hebrew (ancient?) here, did he? He thought he could just repeat the nonsense he read from books. And everyone would just bow down to him and the person writing down all the nonsense.

Peer-review. So much more reliable than people who just publish books pretending to know it all...

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Charles Munroe, posted 04-09-2014 5:32 PM Charles Munroe has responded

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 Message 24 by Charles Munroe, posted 04-14-2014 5:56 PM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Charles Munroe
Member (Idle past 1078 days)
Posts: 40
From: Simi Valley, CA USA
Joined: 09-07-2003


Message 22 of 27 (724204)
04-14-2014 3:21 PM


Suggest you take your complaint to the people that wrote the Torah in English and the late renowned translator E.A. Speiser. Both are recognized as authorities of the ancient Hebrew language.
Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-14-2014 3:46 PM Charles Munroe has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11440
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 23 of 27 (724205)
04-14-2014 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Charles Munroe
04-14-2014 3:21 PM


If you don't reply to a particular message, then we don't know who you're talking to. Especially if you don't use quotes.

Use the Reply button in the bottom right of a message instead of the General Reply button at the top.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Charles Munroe, posted 04-14-2014 3:21 PM Charles Munroe has not yet responded

  
Charles Munroe
Member (Idle past 1078 days)
Posts: 40
From: Simi Valley, CA USA
Joined: 09-07-2003


Message 24 of 27 (724215)
04-14-2014 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Pressie
04-14-2014 6:15 AM


Suggest you take your complaint to the people that wrote the Torah in English and the late renowned translator E.A. Speiser. Both are recognized as authorities of the ancient Hebrew language.
while you are at it check the batteries in your crystal ball as they appear to need replacement.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Pressie, posted 04-14-2014 6:15 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6641
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 25 of 27 (724216)
04-14-2014 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Charles Munroe
04-12-2014 3:32 PM


The atheist I have talked say these are examples of why they rejected the Bible; a God that acts like he is not quite all there.

I would say that it is a human culture that is all there, and that is all there is. The Bible and the Abrahamic religions are as flawed as every other religion pushed by man, each claiming to be the truth while they contradict each other.

Religions were mans attempts to fill in the gaps in our ignorance, give purpose where there was no purpose, and to form social bonds. Genesis is a perfect example of this. It tells us where everything came from, what the purpose of everything is, and which people you belong with. While that worked well for past generations, I don't think human culture requires it anymore.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Charles Munroe, posted 04-12-2014 3:32 PM Charles Munroe has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 176 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


(2)
Message 26 of 27 (724219)
04-14-2014 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Charles Munroe
04-11-2014 1:10 PM


Charles Munroe writes:

The purpose of the book "The Evolution of Genesis" is to take the Biblical stories out of the realm of mythology that a literal reading would suggest.

well, that's just it. that's the problem. these biblical stories are mythology. and it's not just the literal reading that suggests this. it's history, archaeology, comparative religious studies, and literary criticism that suggest it. starting with the idea that the bible must be true and the trying to work out some way for your assumption to be correct is only going to lead to bad exegesis.

catholic scientist and taq rather perfectly sum up my feelings on this. the bible is an historically important selection of works, and one which i find to be very compelling and beautiful in places. to try to twist and reinterpret the text to fit it with some kind of anachronistic message is a great disservice to the text. the things the authors wrote about, and their motivations and beliefs, are far stranger and far more powerful statements about the human condition than this anachronistic revision suggests.

I use E.A. Speicer's translation of the Book of Genesis. Speicer received his PhD. from Dropsie College, what is now know as the Center for Advanced Judaic Studies. If you have a disagreement with his translation I suggest you obtain a copy of Genesis from the Anchor Bible Series now published by the Yale University Press.

you mean speiser? again, as i mentioned, the translation is mostly okay. but look at the footnote under the bit "awesome" wind, which i questioned. note two things: a) he gives no justification for choosing one option over the other, when you'd think the context of this verse is pretty clear, and b) the same footnote cites harry orlinsky. orlinsky's translation reads a bit more like mine.

I suggest you obtain a copy of Genesis from the Anchor Bible Series now published by the Yale University Press.

why? the masoretic hebrew is freely available.

It is intended to facilitate creationists acceptance of evolution. Evolution can be interpreted as merely the recipe that the "Intelligent Designer" followed in bringing all into existence. ... As for my religious views - they definitely have absolutely nothing what so ever to do with creationism in any of its forms. I consider creationism to be an insult to both religions, science and commonsense. Enough said??

or in other words, creationism. evolution isn't a recipe; it's a natural process that only requires the direction provided by natural selection. the problem with this is precisely that it is an insult to both religion and science. it misrepresents both to make it look like they fit together.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Charles Munroe, posted 04-11-2014 1:10 PM Charles Munroe has not yet responded

  
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 651 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


(1)
Message 27 of 27 (724467)
04-17-2014 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Charles Munroe
04-12-2014 3:32 PM


Charles Munroe wrote,

quote:
Some stories in the Old Testament are breeding grounds for atheism.

I would say that most of the stories/myths in the Bible provide ample context to deny the reality of the Biblical Jehova, a deity that is supposedly omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omnipresent..

quote:
A God in the Passover story that torments and then kills people that have no power to release the Hebrew slaves; a God that drowns little children and infants to get rid of evil adults that he was responsible for creating by his massive screw up in the Garden of Eden.

A few of the hundreds of myths that present a vindictive, petty, and cruel deity.

quote:
The atheist I have talked say these are examples of why they rejected the Bible; a God that acts like he is not quite all there.

This is not my reason. My reason for rejecting the assertion for a God, any God not just Jehova, is that there is insufficient evidence to support such a belief, and therefore non-belief is the default position. I reject the Bible as anything other than myth because none of it can be corroborated, and large portions of it defy natural law.

quote:
In my book I try to show that many events in the Bible are real but have been exaggerated by the author.

Great. Which event can you show to have occurred by empirical evidence and not simply a priori belief..?

quote:
The ten plagues were brought on by the eruption of Santorin in 1628 BCE; a natural event that God had nothing to do with.

But that's not evidence ten plagues actually occurred. Rather it is assuming the stories are true, and then looking for some causal event to support their historicity. This is blatant "after this, therefore because of this" reasoning.

quote:
Interestingly the Bible tells the time of year the event took place, April-May, Read your Bible and see if you can spot the clues.

And how do we know the Bible tales are accurate as to the time of year..? If you accept some portions of the Bible as true and others as false or exaggerated or myth...then how do you tell which is which..?

quote:
Did God murder the first born of the Passover story? Most likely it was disease caused by rotting carcasses.

How do you know there was ever any such event as proposed in the Passover story..? There are no Egyptian records of any such event, nor any other records from any extra-biblical source. The idea that 400,000 Israelites left Egypt at one time with their families, and no one took notice of it is ludicrous.

quote:
If the events are carefully analyzed it could also suggest a mass poisoning arranged by Moses.

What extra-biblical evidence do you have that supports the existence of Moses, or the plaagues, or the exodus, or the wandering in the desert, or any of it..? So, you have selected to believe the myths in the Bible as true, but when the Bible says these cruel and inhumane actions were caused by God you think you've found an alibi..? Really..?

quote:
I prefer the former.

I prefer to see myths for what they are...myths.

quote:
Did God drown all of humanity in a worldwide flood?

Certainly not. There is no God, and there never was a world-wide flood.

quote:
The Bible say no. Read Genesis 7:21, 7:24 and 8:11 and then ask what would the condition of the olive tree after five or more months submerged in water. Any arborist will inform you that the tree would be dead and leafless.

Genesis 6:20 "And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth."

The Bible says God caused a world-wide flood, which we know never happened. So, what does that tell you about the authors of this part of the Bible..maybe that they were making it up, and using flood myths from other cultures..?

quote:
Want to understand the Bible?

I already do, and I don't need to create fallacious after this, therefore because of this reasoning to give Jehova a loophole. It's all myth, and not terribly coherent myth at that.

quote:
Then learn to approach it like a detective.

I am a detective, it's what I do for a living.

quote:
Gather evidence and let the evidence lead you to a conclusion rather than accepting literally what the author says.

Great. Are you going to provide your evidence for any of this at a later date, because so far you haven't provided any evidence of anything, just conjecture.

quote:
The author is a human in an age of gross ignorance of the natural world.

Very true, but that doesn't mean some of it actually happened, and the author got confused. What evidence do you have that any of it happened..?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Charles Munroe, posted 04-12-2014 3:32 PM Charles Munroe has not yet responded

    
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