Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,811 Year: 3,068/9,624 Month: 913/1,588 Week: 96/223 Day: 7/17 Hour: 3/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why is evolution so controversial?
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 533 of 969 (739227)
10-22-2014 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 526 by GDR
09-28-2014 7:46 PM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
quote:
Evolution as it stands is the best efforts of science to explain the mechanics of how life has arrived at this point.
Well not actually Evolution does not explain the origin of life (see the NCSE definition, first paragraph).
it is not a "theory of origins" about how life began Evolution | National Center for Science Education
quote:
I have very little understanding of it but from what I do know, it is a beautiful system that has in effect created a life form that in the end creates itself and is self correcting.
Well not actually Evolutions champion is death. Organisms can not advance without a price.
quote:
What a marvelous creation it depicts.
Well not actually Survival of the fittest, reproductive dominance, selfish DNA.
quote:
It is far more creative than the idea, for which there is zero evidence that humans were created complete.
Well not actually Evidence in our DNA denies common descent in general and exhibits a young genome not hundreds of thousands of years old.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 526 by GDR, posted 09-28-2014 7:46 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 534 by GDR, posted 10-22-2014 1:59 AM zaius137 has replied
 Message 536 by Genomicus, posted 10-22-2014 3:46 AM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 535 of 969 (739232)
10-22-2014 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 534 by GDR
10-22-2014 1:59 AM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
quote:
Can't be entirely true. I exist.
Case in point
quote:
I’ll go with the experts and there are a few of those around here. (I am definitely not one of them.)
How do you know I am not an expert?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 534 by GDR, posted 10-22-2014 1:59 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 537 by Theodoric, posted 10-22-2014 9:28 AM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 538 of 969 (739266)
10-22-2014 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 536 by Genomicus
10-22-2014 3:46 AM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
quote:
Would you care to share this evidence of (a) a young genome, and (b) evidence in our DNA that denies common descent?
Speaking of the human genome.
The "effective population (Ne)" is approximately 10,000 in the current population of ~ 7 billion. This could not be if there was not a recent origin or a recent bottleneck in human ancestry. Large populations of organisms drift by polymorphisms over large timespans, increasing the "effective population" unless they have experienced the above mentioned.
Since the acceptance of indels as percentage divergence between humans and chimps, evolution can not maintain a 5.6 million year split between humans and chimps. Paleoanthropology can not accommodate the new similarity percentage of 95%.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 536 by Genomicus, posted 10-22-2014 3:46 AM Genomicus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 540 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-22-2014 11:39 AM zaius137 has replied
 Message 543 by Taq, posted 10-22-2014 1:02 PM zaius137 has replied
 Message 548 by Genomicus, posted 10-22-2014 2:15 PM zaius137 has not replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 539 of 969 (739267)
10-22-2014 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 537 by Theodoric
10-22-2014 9:28 AM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
quote:
Because you are spouting crap.
I will endeavor to discuss only facts with you, unless your only arguments are ad hominem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 537 by Theodoric, posted 10-22-2014 9:28 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 542 of 969 (739272)
10-22-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by New Cat's Eye
10-22-2014 11:39 AM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
Additionally they estimated the effective population size of the common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees to be ~100,000. This was somewhat surprising since the present day effective population size of humans is estimated to be only ~10,000. Human evolutionary genetics - Wikipedia
I used the wiki here, estimates do vary somewhat. I will have to go deeper for further conformation... Let us just accept a reasonable number to further our discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-22-2014 11:39 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-22-2014 1:11 PM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 545 of 969 (739294)
10-22-2014 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by New Cat's Eye
10-22-2014 1:11 PM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
quote:
It is evidence of a bottle neck in the human population.
So when and how did your bottleneck happen?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-22-2014 1:11 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 547 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-22-2014 2:00 PM zaius137 has not replied
 Message 549 by Genomicus, posted 10-22-2014 2:16 PM zaius137 has not replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 546 of 969 (739296)
10-22-2014 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by Taq
10-22-2014 1:02 PM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
quote:
Also, why do 5 million indels in addition to 35 million substitutions pose a problem for the 5 million year estimated time since divergence?
Simple Instead of being 1.33% divergent from chimps, we are now found to be 5% divergent from chimps. There are simply not enough beneficial mutations to explain a divergence from the chimp. As a side note, most mutations are either neutral or deleterious. Both are added to that genetic loading number in humans under soft selection and eventually have to be purged from a population to maintain a acceptable fitness in that population.
Explain how you can account for the high U that would be imparted if mutation rates were met for a human chimp divergence of 5.6 million years? I can quantify that number but you would not like the result.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Taq, posted 10-22-2014 1:02 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 550 by Genomicus, posted 10-22-2014 2:25 PM zaius137 has not replied
 Message 551 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-22-2014 3:33 PM zaius137 has not replied
 Message 552 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-22-2014 4:09 PM zaius137 has replied
 Message 553 by Taq, posted 10-22-2014 5:57 PM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 554 of 969 (739328)
10-22-2014 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 553 by Taq
10-22-2014 5:57 PM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
quote:
The Toba catastrophe theory suggests that a bottleneck of the human population occurred c. 70,000 years ago, proposing that the human population was reduced to perhaps 10,000 individuals[3]
All these bottleneck scenarios involve some kind of low population over extended time frames. That is not really tenable when you take into account the needed mutation rates for divergence between the human and chimp genome. A heavy mutation load in a small population tends to cause that population to be susceptible to sudden collapse (or a sustained downward spiral in population).
quote:
You would have to show that the U would be too high, first.
The following is the calculation for a "U" given a needed mutation rate for a divergence of 5% (95% similarity) and a 5.6 million year divergence from human to chimp.
5.6 million years is 244 thousand generations (given 23 years per generation).
t= number of generations since divergence (244 thousand)
k= percentage of sequence divergence Estimated at 5%
Ne= effective size of population ~10^3
(u)= mutation rate needed.
u= k/(2t+4Ne) or 9.5x10^-8 or ~ 600 mutations per generation (mutation rate times the diploid genome in humans).
Now calculating deleterious mutation rate (U) from the following suggesting that 1.7% of the genome is subject to constraint (normal estimate, citation on demand).
This gives: (600x.017)= U = 10.7 (completely untenable) A acceptable amount by evolutionists would be around U=1.3.
Calculating the statistical birth rate to avoid passing on deleterious mutations to the next generation by the poisson distribution.
B = 2e^U (U=10.7)=
88 thousand offspring needed per mating pair per generation.
This is clearly impossible.
I am sure most of you professionals can follow that calculation... If I need to, I will go over it step by step for you (maybe tomorrow).
You can make up all the stories you like about how and when bottlenecks happen in a population but you must temper that story to real world conditions.
Edited by zaius137, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by Taq, posted 10-22-2014 5:57 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-22-2014 8:30 PM zaius137 has replied
 Message 557 by Genomicus, posted 10-22-2014 8:51 PM zaius137 has not replied
 Message 573 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-23-2014 11:03 AM zaius137 has replied
 Message 590 by Taq, posted 10-23-2014 7:10 PM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 555 of 969 (739329)
10-22-2014 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 552 by New Cat's Eye
10-22-2014 4:09 PM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
quote:
We didn't evolve from the chimp.
Please read what I said carefully.. I said diverged.
quote:
How much of that divergence from chimps is due to our evolution from the common ancestor, and how much of that divergence is due to the chimps evolution from the common ancestor?
All things made equal, most scientists will assume half in their calculations Citation on demand.
quote:
Neither of us species hold all of the evolution from the common ancestor. Some of it is ours and some of it is their’s.
True, but also true is that we are more closely related to the common ancestor than to the chimp. So did the common ancestor look more like us or like the chimp? I would say neither.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-22-2014 4:09 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 572 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-23-2014 9:59 AM zaius137 has not replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 558 of 969 (739332)
10-22-2014 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 556 by Dr Adequate
10-22-2014 8:30 PM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
My friend Dr. Adequate You know what I have posted here is not my calculations. I only substituted in the 95% similarity in the paper found here:
Estimate of the Mutation Rate per Nucleotide in Humans | Genetics | Oxford Academic
If you reject the proceeding calculation you must take it up with Michael W. Nachman⇓ and Susan L. Crowell.
All the justifications apply to what I have done.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-22-2014 8:30 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 559 by Genomicus, posted 10-22-2014 9:16 PM zaius137 has replied
 Message 560 by Coyote, posted 10-22-2014 9:19 PM zaius137 has replied
 Message 565 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-23-2014 12:09 AM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 561 of 969 (739335)
10-22-2014 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 559 by Genomicus
10-22-2014 9:16 PM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
Elementary my dear Genomicus Obtain the new mutation rate, determine the total mutations per diploid and just plug it in to obtain a new U.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 559 by Genomicus, posted 10-22-2014 9:16 PM Genomicus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 569 by Genomicus, posted 10-23-2014 3:07 AM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 562 of 969 (739336)
10-22-2014 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 560 by Coyote
10-22-2014 9:19 PM


Re: Evidence?
quote:
So, what age do you ascribe to modern humans?
And what is your evidence?
Before I answer your question, you must answer mine.
If all science we observe (science has always rested in the details) can only point to one conclusion would you accept that conclusion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 560 by Coyote, posted 10-22-2014 9:19 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 563 by Coyote, posted 10-22-2014 9:59 PM zaius137 has not replied
 Message 564 by Theodoric, posted 10-22-2014 11:51 PM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 566 of 969 (739347)
10-23-2014 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 565 by Dr Adequate
10-23-2014 12:09 AM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
quote:
As their estimate for U is between 1.5 and 4, and your estimate is 10.7, it is you who is rejecting their calculation, and you who should take this up with Nachman and Crowell. If you think you know better then them, you should say why, rather than referring me to a paper which says you're wrong and pretending that it says you're right.
Do you get the part where they are using 1.33% divergence between human and chimp genomes and I am using 5% (new finding)
Moving on
Edited by zaius137, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 565 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-23-2014 12:09 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 568 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-23-2014 2:15 AM zaius137 has not replied
 Message 576 by Taq, posted 10-23-2014 2:13 PM zaius137 has not replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 567 of 969 (739348)
10-23-2014 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 564 by Theodoric
10-22-2014 11:51 PM


Re: Evidence?
Oh metaphysical crap. Even better.
This thread has nothing to do with quantum mechanics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 564 by Theodoric, posted 10-22-2014 11:51 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3409 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 574 of 969 (739378)
10-23-2014 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by Genomicus
10-23-2014 3:07 AM


Re: What if God used evolution to create man?
quote:
It is true that ~1.7% of the genome is subject to constraint as this is approximately the percentage of the genome that codes for functional proteins (the literature varies a bit on the precise percentage, but that's not really relevant here). However, that there is a constraint in no way implies that every single mutation in this genomic region will be deleterious.
I do not dispute your statement above. All the deleterious mutations do not account one for one in mortality. There is a lot of different opinions about the number of deleterious mutations that are subject to natural selection or diseases.
You miss my point in your arguments.
With the implication that indels do influence protein coding regions in DNA a legitimate assertion has been made that they must be counted as percentage divergence.
quote:
Estimated to 3—5% indel divergence Just a moment...
Furthermore, indels occur frequently in coding sequences. Our results thereby support the hypothesis that indels may have a key role in primate evolution.Comparative Genomic Analysis of Human and Chimpanzee Indicates a Key Role for Indels in Primate Evolution | SpringerLink
quote:
An initial map of insertion and deletion (INDEL) variation in the human genome
There are literally a dozen or so new papers either directly or indirectly pointing out the fact that new research shows a higher divergence between humans and chimps. If you can not accept these authorities that is another matter.
Now to the crux of my argument.
Using accepted statistics (the same used in my cited paper), I showed that the new mutation rate needed to account for a divergence time between humans and chimps is UNTENABLE.
The deleterious mutations resulting from a 95% divergence will be certainly fatal.
With 1.3% divergent U=~3.
With 5% divergent U=~10.
A U of (10) >> A U of (3) Implies certain fatality no matter how you cut the pie.
I put this in perspective by calculating needed birth rates...
You can dispute minutia all you want. The fact is that a divergence of 95% and a divergence time of 6 million or even 14 million years can not work!
You are obviously knowledgeable of the subject You posts are excellent.
Do the math yourself If I am wrong and you point out where, I have no trouble eating crow serve the unwashed bird up feathers and all. Just be intellectually honest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by Genomicus, posted 10-23-2014 3:07 AM Genomicus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 579 by Genomicus, posted 10-23-2014 3:36 PM zaius137 has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024