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Author Topic:   Why is evolution so controversial?
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15942
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 931 of 969 (740744)
11-07-2014 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 919 by zaius137
11-06-2014 8:45 PM


Re: Any real evidence for evolution, point on point.
At this point I do not even know what you point is.

That is the exact nature of your problem, yes. And yet the point is a very simple one, which has been explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you and explained to you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 919 by zaius137, posted 11-06-2014 8:45 PM zaius137 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 933 by sfs, posted 11-07-2014 11:36 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded
 Message 945 by zaius137, posted 11-08-2014 1:22 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15942
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 932 of 969 (740745)
11-07-2014 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 924 by zaius137
11-06-2014 10:24 PM


Re: Secular scientists????????
You mean “To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning” (wiki)

I guess that leaves out the evolutionist by definition.

You should try to guess less often. Your guesses have a very poor track record.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 924 by zaius137, posted 11-06-2014 10:24 PM zaius137 has not yet responded

  
sfs
Member
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


Message 933 of 969 (740748)
11-07-2014 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 931 by Dr Adequate
11-07-2014 10:55 AM


Re: Any real evidence for evolution, point on point.
quote:

That is the exact nature of your problem, yes. And yet the point is a very simple one, which has been explained to you and explained ...

pretty well sums it up.

Edited by Admin, : Make link to YouTube video into a YouTube insertion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 931 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2014 10:55 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 934 by zaius137, posted 11-07-2014 12:10 PM sfs has not yet responded
 Message 935 by zaius137, posted 11-07-2014 12:50 PM sfs has not yet responded

    
zaius137
Member (Idle past 854 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 934 of 969 (740755)
11-07-2014 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 933 by sfs
11-07-2014 11:36 AM


Re: Any real evidence for evolution, point on point.
That is just funny...
This message is a reply to:
 Message 933 by sfs, posted 11-07-2014 11:36 AM sfs has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 940 by Taq, posted 11-07-2014 4:33 PM zaius137 has responded

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 854 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 935 of 969 (740766)
11-07-2014 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 933 by sfs
11-07-2014 11:36 AM


Re: Any real evidence for evolution, point on point.
Please do not let the following chase you away from the conversation… it has just started.

Examining the DNA sequences from their experimental animals (a total of over 4 million base pairs!), and comparing them with the controls, turned up a total of 30 mutations.
• 17 of these were insertions or deletions ("indels')
◦ 7 in exons — all but 2 of which produced frameshifts and a premature STOP codon.
◦ 10 in introns or between genes
• 13 of these were single base substitutions ("point" mutations)
◦ 3 in exons : one "silent" producing a synonymous codon; two that changed the encoded amino acid.
◦ 10 in introns or between genes

Calculating Mutation Rate
From these results I have pooled their data to calculate an approximate rate at which spontaneous mutations occur throughout the genome.
Mutation Rate = # of mutations observed [30] ÷ (# of experimental lines [198]) x (average # of generations [339]) x (average # of base pairs sequenced [~21,000])
yielding a rate of 2.1 x 10-8 mutations per base pair per generation.
The total C. elegans genome contains some 108 base pairs so this tells us that two new germline mutations occur somewhere in each of C. elegans's two haploid genomes in each generation.

http://users.rcn.com/...Mutations.html#MeasuringMutationRate

That is how you calculate mutation rate using indels and SNPs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 933 by sfs, posted 11-07-2014 11:36 AM sfs has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 938 by Taq, posted 11-07-2014 4:27 PM zaius137 has not yet responded

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 854 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 936 of 969 (740769)
11-07-2014 12:56 PM


A real (k)
Now knowing the combined (u) (1.1 x10^-8) we can calculate the combined (k) for humans or what it should be.
Replies to this message:
 Message 939 by Taq, posted 11-07-2014 4:28 PM zaius137 has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6651
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 937 of 969 (740824)
11-07-2014 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 927 by zaius137
11-07-2014 3:40 AM


Re: Any real evidence for evolution, point on point.
I do not know how you calculated 250 new mutations per generation . . .

I have given you this calculation several times now.

There are 70 new substitutions each generation. If the indel rate is 1/7th of that as sfs indicated, then that is 10 indels.

Indels can be more than one base. In fact, the average indel is ~20 bases. 10 indels at 20 bases each is 200 bases.

So we have 70 bases changed from substitutions and 200 bases changed from indels. 200 +70 is 270 bases changed per generation.

With a 5% autosomal sequence divergence between a human and chimp you need a mutation rate of ~5 x 10^-8 for 6 million years. That would be 320 new mutations per generation.

320 is very close to the 270 I just calculated.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 927 by zaius137, posted 11-07-2014 3:40 AM zaius137 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 941 by sfs, posted 11-07-2014 8:29 PM Taq has not yet responded
 Message 942 by zaius137, posted 11-08-2014 1:09 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6651
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 938 of 969 (740826)
11-07-2014 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 935 by zaius137
11-07-2014 12:50 PM


Re: Any real evidence for evolution, point on point.
That is how you calculate mutation rate using indels and SNPs.

Notice that they used number of mutations instead of number of bases changed.

If you are going to follow their lead, then you can't use the 5% figure. When you use number of mutations the indels count as 1 mutation instead of multiple bases.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 935 by zaius137, posted 11-07-2014 12:50 PM zaius137 has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6651
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 939 of 969 (740828)
11-07-2014 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 936 by zaius137
11-07-2014 12:56 PM


Re: A real (k)
Now knowing the combined (u) (1.1 x10^-8) we can calculate the combined (k) for humans or what it should be.

What are the units? Number of bases, or number of mutations?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 936 by zaius137, posted 11-07-2014 12:56 PM zaius137 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 944 by zaius137, posted 11-08-2014 1:19 AM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6651
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 940 of 969 (740832)
11-07-2014 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 934 by zaius137
11-07-2014 12:10 PM


Re: Any real evidence for evolution, point on point.
That is just funny...

The funniest part is that you are trying to claim that the theory of evolution will fall apart once we add in the indels.

I took your challenge and added the indels to substitutions for the mutation rate.

What happened? You complained about the indels being added to the substitutions.

Irony?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 934 by zaius137, posted 11-07-2014 12:10 PM zaius137 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 946 by zaius137, posted 11-08-2014 10:36 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
sfs
Member
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


(1)
Message 941 of 969 (740863)
11-07-2014 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 937 by Taq
11-07-2014 4:23 PM


Re: Any real evidence for evolution, point on point.
quote:

There are 70 new substitutions each generation. If the indel rate is 1/7th of that as sfs indicated, then that is 10 indels.


Note that all I did was take the 5 million indels from the chimpanzee genome paper and divide by the 35 million substitutions. (Also, I suspect the reason he's tried to denigrate the chimp genome paper and suggest it's been superseded is that he knows I'm one of the authors.)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 937 by Taq, posted 11-07-2014 4:23 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 943 by zaius137, posted 11-08-2014 1:15 AM sfs has not yet responded

    
zaius137
Member (Idle past 854 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 942 of 969 (740893)
11-08-2014 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 937 by Taq
11-07-2014 4:23 PM


Re: Any real evidence for evolution, point on point.
quote:
I have given you this calculation several times now.

Thanks for your patients.

quote:
There are 70 new substitutions each generation. If the indel rate is 1/7th of that as sfs indicated, then that is 10 indels.

The point that I am highlighting, at this time, is that the 70 new mutations include the indels and substitutions. See the break down for the mutations above the calculation of mutation rate.

quote:
Indels can be more than one base. In fact, the average indel is ~20 bases.

Most indels (for average of papers) in the examined segments were 1 to 4 bp in length (that is dependent on the segments examined).

quote:
So we have 70 bases changed from substitutions and 200 bases changed from indels. 200 +70 is 270 bases changed per generation.

Not at all. The 70 is the total number used in the “mutation rate figure”. Look at the break down for that particular example above.

Edited by zaius137, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 937 by Taq, posted 11-07-2014 4:23 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 854 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 943 of 969 (740894)
11-08-2014 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 941 by sfs
11-07-2014 8:29 PM


Re: Any real evidence for evolution, point on point.
quote:
Note that all I did was take the 5 million indels from the chimpanzee genome paper and divide by the 35 million substitutions.

Which does not have anything to do with mutation rate… scratch the 1/7u again.

(Also, I suspect the reason he's tried to denigrate the chimp genome paper and suggest it's been superseded is that he knows I'm one of the authors.)

Sincerely, I have the utmost respect for you and your work.

Edited by zaius137, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 941 by sfs, posted 11-07-2014 8:29 PM sfs has not yet responded

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 854 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 944 of 969 (740896)
11-08-2014 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 939 by Taq
11-07-2014 4:28 PM


Re: A real (k)
quote:
What are the units? Number of bases, or number of mutations?

Settling this once and for all… a rate of 1.1 x 10-8 “mutations per base pair per generation”.

http://users.rcn.com/...Mutations.html#MeasuringMutationRate

Edited by zaius137, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 939 by Taq, posted 11-07-2014 4:28 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 967 by Taq, posted 11-17-2014 5:46 PM zaius137 has not yet responded

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 854 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 945 of 969 (740898)
11-08-2014 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 931 by Dr Adequate
11-07-2014 10:55 AM


Re: Any real evidence for evolution, point on point.
Good post... and it is that time of the evening.

CHEERS!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 931 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-07-2014 10:55 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
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