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Author Topic:   What are acceptable sources of "scientific knowledge"?
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5702
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 31 of 38 (725276)
04-25-2014 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by ProtoTypical
04-25-2014 5:46 AM


Re: Conspiracy Theory and Validation
If he didn't want my opinion he shouldn't have asked. There was no smiley because
1. I don't use them because I don't think they have any place in serious debate.
2. My comment was an honest answer to his question.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ProtoTypical, posted 04-25-2014 5:46 AM ProtoTypical has not yet responded

    
Ben!
Member (Idle past 974 days)
Posts: 1154
From: San Diego, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 32 of 38 (725278)
04-25-2014 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Dr Adequate
04-24-2014 10:25 AM


Re: Illogical use of logic?
If they come to agree with me for bad reasons, what happens when someone shows them that the reasons are bad? Won't they come to regards me as a liar and a fool?

In my example, advertising would be backed by the science of global warming. The logic is the same as the current approach; it's the approach in convincing others that's different.

Rather than asking them to understand the scientific facts (which is failing), it's using a similar strategy to those they believe--advertising and promotion.

Won't they think that if I could have given good reasons, I would have done so? Won't they conclude that there are no good reasons?

You call people illogical for ignoring / misunderstanding / misrepresenting facts, then treating them as if they're logical. I'm suggesting that that position is itself illogical and fruitless.

Won't this cause them to react against my idea and the lying liar who deceitfully foisted it on them?

Nowhere did I suggest that you lie. Just realize that many people can't or won't understand the scientific facts. Present them with conclusions, emotions on potential futures, and other derivative materials that speak to them.

And then not only have I not convinced them, but I'm going to have a lot of trouble convincing them of anything else.

Isn't the point that we're already having trouble convincing them of anything?

Again, it's not a lie. It's just a different way to present materials. It's all the same conclusions, packaged in very different ways.

Different packaging for different people. Why force people to try and hear the same things? Who does that serve, in the end?

When I have a rock, it seems to me improvident to build my house upon the sand.

When you have gold and you need to sell it to have something to eat, it seems silly to sell it only on the condition that the buyer is willing and capable to verify that your gold is pure. I say: you know it's pure; stop trying to be so controlling, sell the damn thing, and eat!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-24-2014 10:25 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-25-2014 10:29 AM Ben! has responded
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 04-25-2014 11:12 AM Ben! has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15482
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 33 of 38 (725281)
04-25-2014 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Ben!
04-25-2014 10:10 AM


Re: Illogical use of logic?
Again, it's not a lie. It's just a different way to present materials. It's all the same conclusions, packaged in very different ways.

Hmm, I see what you mean.

For example, I seem to remember that if you want conservatives to worry about pollution, don't talk to them about saving the precious trees and the adorable animals and so forth. They don't care. Tell them that pollution is dirty. Conservatives are fastidious, and this way of putting it affects them emotionally.

But that's just one particular case. In general, I guess you have to study the psychology of your audience.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Ben!, posted 04-25-2014 10:10 AM Ben! has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Ben!, posted 04-25-2014 4:00 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9333
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 34 of 38 (725284)
04-25-2014 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Ben!
04-25-2014 10:10 AM


Re: Illogical use of logic?
In my example, advertising would be backed by the science of global warming. The logic is the same as the current approach; it's the approach in convincing others that's different.

I'm pretty skeptical about this approach. Advertising can be applied regardless of the truth, and the deeper pockets are against the science. With all of the publicity so far, people still cannot tell the difference between climate and weather.

I believe that the Supreme Court is about to confirm that propagating absolute, bald faced, vicious lies using grotesquely huge amounts of money is absolutely cool during a political campaign, and few things are more politically involved than global warming.

Yes, something like this might work for preventing forest fires. I'd get a big old bear to deliver the message. But Smokey would not have to fight the Koch brothers and 60 Plus.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Ben!, posted 04-25-2014 10:10 AM Ben! has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Ben!, posted 04-25-2014 4:11 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Ben!
Member (Idle past 974 days)
Posts: 1154
From: San Diego, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


(1)
Message 35 of 38 (725310)
04-25-2014 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Dr Adequate
04-25-2014 10:29 AM


Re: Illogical use of logic?
In general, I guess you have to study the psychology of your audience.

Yes, exactly! I feel like we (people focused on science and empiricism) have really failed to do this, in politics, conversations, and everything else--to the detriment of getting real traction on many of our ideas.

Too content to be right, not strategic enough to get the buy-in we need to make as big an impact now as what we want (and need) to.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-25-2014 10:29 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-25-2014 4:14 PM Ben! has not yet responded
 Message 38 by Taq, posted 04-25-2014 4:56 PM Ben! has not yet responded

    
Ben!
Member (Idle past 974 days)
Posts: 1154
From: San Diego, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 36 of 38 (725312)
04-25-2014 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by NoNukes
04-25-2014 11:12 AM


Re: Illogical use of logic?
I'm pretty skeptical about this approach. Advertising can be applied regardless of the truth, and the deeper pockets are against the science. With all of the publicity so far, people still cannot tell the difference between climate and weather.

I agree that it's an uphill battle and that empiricists are far behind the game. I don't think it's a reason not to fight; I think it's a reason to start now!

In my eyes, something is better than nothing. Politicians with the biggest budget don't always win.... and I think smaller budget gaps are going to produce better chances of winning.

If not competing on these grounds, then how else to compete? I'm open to suggestions!

I believe that the Supreme Court is about to confirm that propagating absolute, bald faced, vicious lies using grotesquely huge amounts of money is absolutely cool during a political campaign, and few things are more politically involved than global warming.

Right. Again, we can't run away from the fight; this is the world we live in. If we don't try to compete here, then how do we win?

Really--I'm all ears. My best idea is to be right AND to be more politically savvy. To make more money, to use it for what we think is good, and ... generally, to be less satisfied with trying to be "right".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 04-25-2014 11:12 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11183
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 37 of 38 (725313)
04-25-2014 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Ben!
04-25-2014 4:00 PM


Re: Illogical use of logic?
In general, I guess you have to study the psychology of your audience.

Yes, exactly! I feel like we (people focused on science and empiricism) have really failed to do this,

Well, you know, science and empiricism geeks do tend to be socially awkward.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Ben!, posted 04-25-2014 4:00 PM Ben! has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 38 of 38 (725317)
04-25-2014 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Ben!
04-25-2014 4:00 PM


Re: Illogical use of logic?
Yes, exactly! I feel like we (people focused on science and empiricism) have really failed to do this, in politics, conversations, and everything else--to the detriment of getting real traction on many of our ideas.

There will always be times in history when people prefer to believe in comfortable lies instead of uncomfortable truths. We can supply the facts and hope people pull their head's out of their asses.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Ben!, posted 04-25-2014 4:00 PM Ben! has not yet responded

  
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