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Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Evolution falsifies God/s? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
faceman Member (Idle past 3407 days) Posts: 149 From: MN, USA Joined: |
Sanford models a ~25% loss in fitness over 500 generations at his mutation rate. That translates into a ~100% loss of fitness in 100 generations at the mutation rate you require. In other words, you are unwittingly proposing a model in which we would have been extinct 2000 years ago. He's not accounting for neutral mutations.
"Neutral" won't harm us. If detrimental mutations can lead to extinction then they would necessarily be subject to purifying selection before the extinction happened, wouldn't they? Not according to the near neutral theory. If correct, then most mutations are actually slightly deleterious, but not enough to be selected out by natural selection. They then accumulate, reduce fitness and finally cause extinction.
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faceman Member (Idle past 3407 days) Posts: 149 From: MN, USA Joined: |
Die Google ist dein Freund.
Her name is Tomoko Ohta, btw.
You still haven't answered my question. Do you have any examples of genetic extinction that resulted from genetic load? No not yet, but keep your eye on the atheist from WI, he seems to be nearing meltdown real soon.
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faceman Member (Idle past 3407 days) Posts: 149 From: MN, USA Joined: |
Here it is in action:
The Achilles' heel of biological complexity
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Can it ultimately turn a fish into us? Yes. This has been explained to you.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
He's not accounting for neutral mutations. There may be all sorts of things he's not accounting for. That's hardly a defense of his model, is it?
Not according to the near neutral theory. If correct, then most mutations are actually slightly deleterious, but not enough to be selected out by natural selection. They then accumulate, reduce fitness and finally cause extinction. That is not what the nearly neutral theory says, and if it did we'd know it was wrong, since this is not what we observe. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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faceman Member (Idle past 3407 days) Posts: 149 From: MN, USA Joined: |
That is not what the nearly neutral theory says, and if it did we'd know it was wrong, since this is not what we observe. We observe variation, not new body plans having been created.
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faceman Member (Idle past 3407 days) Posts: 149 From: MN, USA Joined: |
Can it ultimately turn a fish into us?
Yes. This has been explained to you. The closest you ever came was to suggest insertion mutations were the key. I don't see how that could work though, if the majority of DNA is poly-functional.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
We observe variation, not new body plans having been created. Ooooh, are we playing Dumb Non Sequiturs? My turn! "Flying anteaters are attacking my sock drawer."
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
The closest you ever came was to suggest insertion mutations were the key. I don't see how that could work though, if the majority of DNA is poly-functional. Please re-read my posts until you know what I said. Then when you tell me what I said, this activity will be stupid only by virtue of its redundancy rather than its inaccuracy. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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faceman Member (Idle past 3407 days) Posts: 149 From: MN, USA Joined: |
Ooooh, are we playing Dumb Non Sequiturs? My turn! "Flying anteaters are attacking my sock drawer." I see some signature material here. Do you mind?
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2499 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined:
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faceman writes: He's not accounting for neutral mutations. He assumes most to be neutral, and counts just 10 per. generation transfer as being deleterious.
faceman writes: bluegenes writes: "Neutral" won't harm us. If detrimental mutations can lead to extinction then they would necessarily be subject to purifying selection before the extinction happened, wouldn't they? Not according to the near neutral theory. If correct, then most mutations are actually slightly deleterious, but not enough to be selected out by natural selection. They then accumulate, reduce fitness and finally cause extinction. If accumulation reduces fitness, then accumulations in individuals would be subject to purifying selection. Distribution will be unequal, so the mutation level can be controlled by selection. Think about it. In your 6,000 young earth years, fruit flies are 150,000 generations old, and thriving. They probably have at least 50 of your near neutral slightly deleterious mutations per individual per generation transfer. That would give them a "load" of 7,500,000. If that can't kill you, then clearly most mutations are effectively neutral, and/or purifying selection works well. The YEC hyper mutation rate necessary to explain the diversity we can see on the Y chromosome happening since Noah would mean more than 1000 mutations per. generation transfer on the whole genome. That means that the effect you describe should kick in far more rapidly than Sanford would expect. Also, consider the chances of an individual avoiding any serious/lethal deleterious mutations at that rate. It might be that women would have to bear more than 30 children to produce 2 who could survive to adulthood and maintain a stable population! As a YEC, you need to argue that purifying selection works very well, yet you insist on doing the opposite. Why?
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faceman Member (Idle past 3407 days) Posts: 149 From: MN, USA Joined: |
Think about it. In your 6,000 young earth years, fruit flies are 150,000 generations old, and thriving. They probably have at least 50 of your near neutral slightly deleterious mutations per individual per generation transfer. That would give them a "load" of 7,500,000. If that can't kill you, then clearly most mutations are effectively neutral, and/or purifying selection works well. Why not use bacteria as your example. I think they burn through a generation every 30 min or so, don't they? It's an apples to oranges comparison though. The far more simpler genome of the fruit fly (or of bacteria) means less can go wrong plus they have an enormous population size anyways (unlike us). If something does go wrong, then natural selection should spot it right away and remove it. The near neutral theory, however, allows for slightly deleterious mutations to squeak by, unnoticed by natural selection.
As a YEC, you need to argue that purifying selection works very well, yet you insist on doing the opposite. I like uphill battles.
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2499 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
faceman writes: Why not use bacteria as your example. Because fruitflies are sexual eukaryotes, like us.
I think they burn through a generation every 30 min or so, don't they? It's an apples to oranges comparison though. The far more simpler genome of the fruit fly (or of bacteria) means less can go wrong plus they have an enormous population size anyways (unlike us). If something does go wrong, then natural selection should spot it right away and remove it. How do you measure the genome of the fruitfly as being "far simpler" than ours?
faceman writes: The near neutral theory, however, allows for slightly deleterious mutations to squeak by, unnoticed by natural selection. That certainly can happen, especially in bottlenecks, if by "squeak by", you mean "go to fixation".
faceman writes: bluegenes writes: As a YEC, you need to argue that purifying selection works very well, yet you insist on doing the opposite. Why? I like uphill battles. A possible explanation. Alternatively, you might not have been aware of your mistake until I pointed it out, and you still might not understand it. Let's be honest.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Would you agree that a protocell would not have had the DNA sequences available to it to create an eye or an ear or hands or feet? Or did it? Would a protocell have any DNA? or are you jumping from the RNA world to the prokaryote cells now? I would agree that no primitive prokaryote cell organism would have the specific sequences in their genome to form an "eye or an ear or hands or feet" ... but they could still evolve into bacteria living today that don't have an "eye or an ear or hands or feet" ... because it is rather difficult to assemble a multicellular structure in a single cell life forms. Further I would agree that no organism would have the specific sequences to form any traits that are not in the population for that species. Does this shocking information invalidate all biological science? Because the DNA for all living and extinct lifeforms on earth use the same basic structure of C, A, T and G molecules in DNA every organism carries sufficient DNA to be transformed into any other organism by rearranging the molecules. The actual process would take many mutations, many selections in favorable ecologies, many generations to achieve relatively minor modifications. Many steps, taken one step at a time. Such developments of traits and features can be observed in the fossil record -- such as the development of the mammal jaw and ear structure from the reptilian structures, documented by therapsids over many generations. Or the evolution of tetrapodal intermediate Tiktaalik from finned fish. By the regular evolution process. Many steps, taken one step at a time. Curiously, positing a single step evolutionary jump of a change like this is an absurdly stupid misrepresentation of how evolution is known to work, and demonstrates a basic level of ignorance of how biology works, rather than any challenge to evolution. You just look silly saying it. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : , clrty Edited by RAZD, : mre clrtyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9143 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
When you have nothing it is best to say nothing.
It is better to be thought a fool rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt. Now would you like to contribute to the topic?Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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