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Author Topic:   What is a 'true Christian'?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 121 of 141 (745937)
12-30-2014 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by dwise1
12-29-2014 12:44 AM


Re: Where Some Of Us Stand
Why hate atheists so much?
Sooo much?
Are you suggesting that Jesus would not hate atheists?
It is my belief that Jesus hates sin. Sin, by definition is seperation from God. Premise #1, in my worldview=God exists. God created all things seen and unseen. I have more respect for an agnostic who does not know than I do for someone who is simply oblivious to my belief. It is more honest, in my mind and way of thinking, to at least admit that I could be right rather than to state unequivocally that without evidence I quite likely and reasonably have no leg to stand on. It feels like a glove slap.
Dan Barker sounds like an interesting chap. You do also. I cannot honestly say that I hate you or that I hate Dan. I can admit to having a strong aversion to your belief. Perhaps, in all honesty, I do not fully empathize with your thought process due to lack of the experience of living in your skin for awhile.
dwise1 writes:
In that 1985 presentation, he described the way that the fundamentalist mind works as being "then your theology becomes your psychology." His point to that atheist audience was that fundamentalist Christians think differently than normal people do with everything being motivated, interpreted, and filtered, frequently very heavily, through their theology.
Interesting premise.
You think that we kneel down before the flag and paper money, pray to them, and sing hymns to them? Yes, of course, that would be ridiculous and I hope that you can see that for yourself.
Watch people in a grocery store approach the lottery scratch ticket machine. You will observe, as have I and others, that they quite literally bow to the machine as they reach down to pick up their purchase of a scrap of dreams. I have yet to see anyone singing hymns to the machine, however.
But when you place whatever we may feel and think about such things above what you feel and think when worshipping the Christ, then your Christian mind is blinding you to reality..
which would be problematic if reality were in fact a higher concept than belief.
You think that everybody must worship something, so, since they no longer worship God then they must now worship something else, like Flag or money or science or Darwin. Wrong!
I disagree. Perhaps we should discuss the idea brought forth that everyone must and or does worship something. I would argue that some people at the very least worship their kids. They would counter my argument by claiming that the very concept of worship is not anywhere in their worldview.
Do you understand my point? Worshipping is something that you do, but not that we do.
Ahhh thanks. That confirms my understanding of your point of view. Granted I am a bit of a pompous ass sometimes...ask Theodoric!
By the way, I have stated before that I do not like Theodoric very much. This is true. I do embrace love more than hate, however.
You need to keep in mind that we do not think in the same manner as you do.
I am beginning to explore this odd fact on a deeper level.
Please answer the question.
I hope that I have answered it, but if not, please clarify more fully.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by dwise1, posted 12-29-2014 12:44 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2014 2:52 AM Phat has replied
 Message 133 by Theodoric, posted 12-30-2014 11:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 138 by dwise1, posted 12-31-2014 2:32 AM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 122 of 141 (745943)
12-30-2014 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
12-30-2014 12:47 AM


Re: Where Some Of Us Stand
Phat writes:
Dan Barker sounds like an interesting chap. You do also. I cannot honestly say that I hate you or that I hate Dan. I can admit to having a strong aversion to your belief. Perhaps, in all honesty, I do not fully empathize with your thought process due to lack of the experience of living in your skin for awhile.
"I cannot honestly say that I hate you" What does that mean Phat? To me that sounds like you feel that you should hate atheists but you almost don't or your loathing of us doesn't quite hit the hate level.
You've said some casually offensive and disgraceful things in the past about atheists without recognising their offensiveness - the way white people in the 50s were openly racist because it was the norm. Is this just same?
What is preached about atheism in your church? Are we people to be feared and avoided? Are we devils in human form? What are you told about us?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 12-30-2014 12:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 12-30-2014 3:16 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 123 of 141 (745944)
12-30-2014 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Tangle
12-30-2014 2:52 AM


Re: Where Some Of Us Stand
Tangle writes:
What is preached about atheism in your church? Are we people to be feared and avoided? Are we devils in human form? What are you told about us?
I've not heard anything about atheists. We focus on reaching the urban poor. What religion or belief they hold is of no consequence. If they end up coming to our church, it is not because we bribed them.
Here is our facebook page
I do believe in One Holy Spirit and other spirits, but I don't believe that humans are either devils or spirits.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2014 2:52 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2014 3:20 AM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 124 of 141 (745945)
12-30-2014 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
12-30-2014 3:16 AM


Re: Where Some Of Us Stand
Ok, but you've only answered part of my post what about the rest?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 12-30-2014 3:16 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 12-30-2014 3:24 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 125 of 141 (745946)
12-30-2014 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Tangle
12-30-2014 3:20 AM


Re: Where Some Of Us Stand
Tangle writes:
"I cannot honestly say that I hate you" What does that mean Phat? To me that sounds like you feel that you should hate atheists but you almost don't or your loathing of us doesn't quite hit the hate level.
I can understand a hatred of ideas,beliefs, and world views. I cannot understand hating any human for whatever reason. One may disagree with the message yet need not shoot the messenger.
You've said some casually offensive and disgraceful things in the past about atheists without recognising their offensiveness - the way white people in the 50s were openly racist because it was the norm. Is this just same?
Im working on this one. Sometimes i get in an addictive online response mode and fire back responses to people without giving them proper thought or consideration.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2014 3:20 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2014 3:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 126 of 141 (745947)
12-30-2014 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Phat
12-30-2014 3:24 AM


Re: Where Some Of Us Stand
Thanks for that but I still think you're evading a little.
It's the instinctive reactions which give away real feelings before the brain can qualify or nullify them. I get the feeling from you and other fundamental believers - oddly and probably wrongly, not from Faith - that you think there's something fundamentally wrong with us atheists and you'd cross the road - or worse - to avoid us. Hence your ungarded 'hate' comment.
Btw - the hate the sin love the sinner stuff that is regularly spouted by out-and-out bigots is utter bullshit. The sin and the sinner are one and the same, that's why we punish people for the crimes they commit. There is no distinction between the gun and the bullit.
Btw #2 being an atheist is not a sin.
Btw #3 there is no such thing as sin. Obviously

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 12-30-2014 3:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 127 of 141 (745948)
12-30-2014 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by dwise1
12-29-2014 4:22 PM


Re: Where Some Of Us Stand
I know Landover is satire.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by dwise1, posted 12-29-2014 4:22 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 12-30-2014 7:55 AM Larni has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 128 of 141 (745949)
12-30-2014 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Larni
12-30-2014 4:00 AM


Re: Where Some Of Us Stand
coulda fooled me!

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Larni, posted 12-30-2014 4:00 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Larni, posted 12-30-2014 7:59 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 130 by dwise1, posted 12-30-2014 9:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 129 of 141 (745950)
12-30-2014 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
12-30-2014 7:55 AM


Re: Where Some Of Us Stand
It did fool me, for a bit.
I made up an account in righteous fury and then just could not believe it was real and looked it up on the googles and then just enjoyed a very ride.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 12-30-2014 7:55 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by dwise1, posted 12-30-2014 9:49 AM Larni has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 130 of 141 (745953)
12-30-2014 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
12-30-2014 7:55 AM


Re: Where Some Of Us Stand
Like I said, the problem with trying to do satire or a parody of fundamentalism is that it is all too often indistinguishable from the real thing. The best that they can do is to make their presentation more extreme, but there again the real fundamentalists are able to match and surpass their efforts.
I will be off-line for most of the day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 12-30-2014 7:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 131 of 141 (745954)
12-30-2014 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Larni
12-30-2014 7:59 AM


Re: Where Some Of Us Stand
A lot of the humor is in the forum members' titles, the list of icons that we see on Christian sites, and the members' signatures. Of the "atheist" posters, the one who had posted a cogent reply had his own contribution "mysteriously" disappear leaving only the text he had quoted, not unlike what we've experienced on such sites where message they do not approve of disappear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Larni, posted 12-30-2014 7:59 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Larni, posted 12-30-2014 9:53 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 132 of 141 (745955)
12-30-2014 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by dwise1
12-30-2014 9:49 AM


Re: Where Some Of Us Stand
Yeah, once I figured it out I remember being sure some of my post had vanished, wholesale: I got band pretty quick.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by dwise1, posted 12-30-2014 9:49 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 133 of 141 (745960)
12-30-2014 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
12-30-2014 12:47 AM


Re: Where Some Of Us Stand
I cannot honestly say that I hate you or that I hate Dan.
I guess this speaks volumes. If I were talking about you or other fundies I would state this.
Theodoric writes:
I can honestly say I do not hate you or other fundies
I guess that is the difference between an atheist world view and a fundie world view. How are you different than Islamic fundies who preach hate?
Watch people in a grocery store approach the lottery scratch ticket machine. You will observe, as have I and others, that they quite literally bow to the machine as they reach down to pick up their purchase of a scrap of dreams.
I don't doubt this. I would bet the vast majority, if not all, are professed christians, not the atheist that you accuse of doing this.
which would be problematic if reality were in fact a higher concept than belief.
You really need to get a grip on reality. Belief doesn't seem to have helped with your addiction issues. Maybe facing reality will. I don't remember the specifics but a governor once said when increasing education funding that they had already tried ignorance and it didn't work. I see something similar with you.
By the way, I have stated before that I do not like Theodoric very much. This is true. I do embrace love more than hate, however.
You embrace love toward those that fit your worldview. As you have stated you can hate those of us that threaten that world view. Why is that? Honestly, I think you are a pompous fool but I can think that and still like you. The idea of hating you in any way is impossible for me to even conceive.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 12-30-2014 12:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 12-30-2014 11:30 AM Theodoric has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 134 of 141 (745962)
12-30-2014 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Theodoric
12-30-2014 11:10 AM


Re: Where Some Of Us Stand
Theodoric writes:
The idea of hating you in any way is impossible for me to even conceive.
That's most likely a reflection on your ability to conceive rather than on your ability to hate. In general, human beings find it pretty easy to hate; it's built into us by evolution. The ability to rationalize hate away is also greater than the ability to rationally deal with our own hate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Theodoric, posted 12-30-2014 11:10 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Theodoric, posted 12-30-2014 11:45 AM ringo has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 135 of 141 (745965)
12-30-2014 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by ringo
12-30-2014 11:30 AM


Re: Where Some Of Us Stand
Oh I can hate. That is not what I was saying. I just cannot conceive of caring enough about someone I debate with on the internet enough to hate them. Nothing Phat says has enough effect on me to make me have much emotion toward him at all.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 12-30-2014 11:30 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by ringo, posted 12-30-2014 11:48 AM Theodoric has replied

  
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