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Author Topic:   Where should there be "The right to refuse service"?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 811 of 928 (758534)
05-28-2015 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 810 by Faith
05-28-2015 2:59 AM


Re: No second thoughts?
Christians will get by just fine living in the new world of not being able to openly discriminate against people. In fact, all over the world Christians do just that and most of them support and even draft the laws you are complaining about.
Christian beliefs have changed to be compatible with the society they live in just as they always have. The things held 'true' 500 years ago are no longer seen that way now - even by you Faith.
Maybe Christianity is changing to represent Jesus's real message of loving thy neighbour, turning the other cheek and do as you would be done by; if so the world is a better place for it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 810 by Faith, posted 05-28-2015 2:59 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 812 of 928 (758535)
05-28-2015 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 810 by Faith
05-28-2015 2:59 AM


Re: No second thoughts?
quote:
My point was simple and factual and you along with all the rest here are engaged in obscuring it. I outlined changes over the last few decades to show that it's only very recently that any kind of law has existed that has brought about legal action against Christians living according to their beliefs.
It is a fact that beliefs are not criminalised in the U.S. It is a fact that there are no hate speech laws in the U.S. Any claim to the contrary is NOT factual.
Compare the Puritan's persecution of Quakers in Boston. Even when the death penalty was revoked, Quakers were still whipped out of town. You've got nothing like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 810 by Faith, posted 05-28-2015 2:59 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 813 by Faith, posted 05-28-2015 4:23 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 813 of 928 (758536)
05-28-2015 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 812 by PaulK
05-28-2015 3:24 AM


Re: No second thoughts?
There's a passage in the Bible that says something like Woe to those who hold a person guilty over a word. That's what you are doing. The point I'm making does not hinge on your petty precision in making an issue over my imprecise use of the word "belief" as opposed to "acting on belief." What I spelled out is factual changes in the law that do criminalize Christians for preaching the Bible or acting on their belief in the Bible, and this has occurred in reality as I showed. Oh I'm sure you can make me a miscreant over some other word though or even the same one since obviously all you care about is obscuring the true point I made while accusing me of something, anything. All your accusations could be true but the point I made is still factual.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 812 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2015 3:24 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 814 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2015 5:05 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 816 by AZPaul3, posted 05-28-2015 6:18 AM Faith has replied
 Message 817 by jar, posted 05-28-2015 8:42 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 814 of 928 (758537)
05-28-2015 5:05 AM
Reply to: Message 813 by Faith
05-28-2015 4:23 AM


Re: No second thoughts?
quote:
There's a passage in the Bible that says something like Woe to those who hold a person guilty over a word. That's what you are doing
What I am doing is disagreeing with false claims. As I pointed out outlawing the Quakers could justly be seen as criminalising belief.
quote:
The point I'm making does not hinge on your petty precision in making an issue over my imprecise use of the word "belief" as opposed to "acting on belief."
But it is not a petty distinction. It is a very big distinction. And one very relevant to your claims of persecution. It is one thing to say that you will be arrested because of your beliefs, it is another to say that you should be able to break any law you like, so long as you have a religious justification.
To say that belief is being criminalised is a distortion and correcting that distortion clarifies the issue - as we can clearly see.
quote:
What I spelled out is factual changes in the law that do criminalize Christians for preaching the Bible or acting on their belief in the Bible, and this has occurred in reality as I showed
If you can show a criminal prosecution in the U.S merely for preaching the Bible I'd like to see it. As for actions, as I've pointed out religious motivation is not a free pass to breaking the law. And in fact, if it had been the original purpose of the laws you are complaining about - ending racial segregation - would have been thoroughly compromised.
And stop whining just because your distortion and misrepresentations are being exposed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 813 by Faith, posted 05-28-2015 4:23 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 815 of 928 (758538)
05-28-2015 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 806 by Faith
05-28-2015 1:48 AM


Re: Inquisition still continuing
quote:
...but it did turn up reports on this sort of persecution being common in that region of Mexico, such as Persecuted Christians in Mexico kept from returning home.

In light of recent posts, this seems relevant:
Exacerbating the problem is impunity in Mexico for religiously motivated crimes.
"We know of almost no cases where somebody has been prosecuted for criminal acts in the name of religion," she said. "In Mexico, if you commit a crime, destroy your neighbor's house, and you say it was religious, suddenly it becomes an exempt crime for some reason, [as if they] can't touch that."
Do you agree that this is wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 806 by Faith, posted 05-28-2015 1:48 AM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 816 of 928 (758539)
05-28-2015 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 813 by Faith
05-28-2015 4:23 AM


Reality Check
There's a passage in the Bible that says something like Woe to those who hold a person guilty over a word.
Faith, this disagreement revolves around words to be sure but the whole issue has now become one of attitude. The world is changing and the majority of the Christian world is being forced to change as well.
American society is changing and the majority of the Christian communities are changing with it, some even embracing the changes. Others, such as yourself and your brand of TrueChristian are resisting these changes.
It is difficult to lose privilege and watch your church’s power erode to this extent, I understand, but it is happening and will continue to happen given the attitude you display here. This society is moving beyond your hardened philosophy to embrace ever greater respect for the human condition in all its aspects.
quote:
I appreciate how gay and lesbian men and women feel on this day. That they feel this is something that is enriching the way they live. I think it is a social revolutionWe [the church] have to stop and have a reality check, not move into denial of the realities. We won’t begin again with a sense of renewal, with a sense of denial.
--Diarmuid Martin, Archbishop of Dublin
You can fight it all you want, Faith, but change is inevitable and will continue. This society is becoming enlightened beyond the ancient biases in your book. If you really love the Word, Faith, then your church needs to change with the rest of the society or step ever closer to the dust bin.
Edited by AZPaul3, : title
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 813 by Faith, posted 05-28-2015 4:23 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 823 by Faith, posted 05-28-2015 11:47 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 817 of 928 (758546)
05-28-2015 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 813 by Faith
05-28-2015 4:23 AM


No persecution of Christians in the US
Faith writes:
There's a passage in the Bible that says something like Woe to those who hold a person guilty over a word. That's what you are doing. The point I'm making does not hinge on your petty precision in making an issue over my imprecise use of the word "belief" as opposed to "acting on belief." What I spelled out is factual changes in the law that do criminalize Christians for preaching the Bible or acting on their belief in the Bible, and this has occurred in reality as I showed. Oh I'm sure you can make me a miscreant over some other word though or even the same one since obviously all you care about is obscuring the true point I made while accusing me of something, anything. All your accusations could be true but the point I made is still factual.
There are no examples in today's United States of anyone being criminalized for speech or beliefs unless that speech poses a credible risk of harm to another person or their property. To claim otherwise is simply a lie.
There is no Biblical basis for refusing to bake a wedding cake for a same-sex marriage and as a matter of fact the Bible actually has passages that say common courtesy and love for fellow humans is more important than even following some law, even a law from God. You have even been provided with just such a passage from the Bible.
Sorry but you and all the other members of your Chapter of Club Christian have lost this debate on Biblical as well as a humanitarian basis.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 813 by Faith, posted 05-28-2015 4:23 AM Faith has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 818 of 928 (758547)
05-28-2015 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 808 by Faith
05-28-2015 2:01 AM


Re: No second thoughts?
OK, how about "Preaching or acting upon our ancient traditional beliefs is now being defined as criminal, by redefining it as "hate speech" and a "violation of civil rights."
No, it isn't. As far as I know, there is no law against hate speech.
What I say to libertarians, is this: if you don't want government having any sayso in what you do, then go live in the jungle and fight it out with the lions. However, if you prefer to have the benefits of living in a society, then you also have to accepts the obligations of that social living.
The baker is perfectly free to close his business. Then he won't have to serve anyone he doesn't want to serve. But if the baker wants to benefit from what society offers by opening a business, then he has to do that under the rules of the society. "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's ..."

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 808 by Faith, posted 05-28-2015 2:01 AM Faith has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 819 of 928 (758549)
05-28-2015 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 805 by Faith
05-28-2015 1:19 AM


Re: No second thoughts?
Redefining terms does not change reality, but it does lend strength to reinforcing bias.
That's why you redefine terms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 805 by Faith, posted 05-28-2015 1:19 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 820 of 928 (758554)
05-28-2015 11:43 AM


Funny how nobody follows the argument: how over the last decade or two standard Christian practice became criminal so that some Christians have come under legal attack, and how brand new this is. No "hate speech" legal action here yet but the concept is on the books and since preachers elsewhere have been targeted by it we can be sure it's just a matter of time here too.
All you all have to say is to deny it though it's clear as day what's going on, or approve of it, which is irrelevant. Nobody wants to address how fast all this is happening, this criminalizing of ancient Christian attitudes.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 822 by jar, posted 05-28-2015 11:46 AM Faith has replied
 Message 827 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2015 11:56 AM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 821 of 928 (758555)
05-28-2015 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 805 by Faith
05-28-2015 1:19 AM


Re: No second thoughts?
Faith writes:
... they do specifically target Christians....
It's just bizarre that you can claim that a government totally dominated by Christians is passing laws that target Christians.
Faith writes:
So now standard Bible preaching is "hate speech" though it never was over the previous millennia, and our stance on homosexuality and gay marriage is now a violation of civil rights after millennia of being just standard Bible teaching.
Hate has always been hate. The definition we have always used is right in your Bible: doing unto others as you would have them do unto you is love; casting the first stone is hate. It's unfortunate that it took some of us millennia to understand that gay people are human beings and not something you scraped off your shoe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 805 by Faith, posted 05-28-2015 1:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 825 by Faith, posted 05-28-2015 11:50 AM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 822 of 928 (758556)
05-28-2015 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 820 by Faith
05-28-2015 11:43 AM


Faith writes:
Nobody wants to address how fast all this is happening, this criminalizing of ancient Christian practices.
Many ancient Christian practices should be criminalized; folk today are generally more moral than the Gods of the Bible ever were.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 820 by Faith, posted 05-28-2015 11:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 824 by Faith, posted 05-28-2015 11:49 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 823 of 928 (758557)
05-28-2015 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 816 by AZPaul3
05-28-2015 6:18 AM


Re: Reality Check
and the majority of the Christian world is being forced to change as well.
Maybe the "majority" will cave but true Christians won't. Guess we'll see some sorting of sheep from goats.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 816 by AZPaul3, posted 05-28-2015 6:18 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 824 of 928 (758558)
05-28-2015 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 822 by jar
05-28-2015 11:46 AM


And another vote of approval without addressing the topic of how fast Christians have come under persecution. I suppose the Antichrist will soon take his place at the head of it all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 822 by jar, posted 05-28-2015 11:46 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 828 by jar, posted 05-28-2015 12:12 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 825 of 928 (758559)
05-28-2015 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 821 by ringo
05-28-2015 11:45 AM


Re: No second thoughts?
Treating sin as not sin is not love. Love requires warning people of the consequences of sin, not pretending they're just fine when they're not,.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 821 by ringo, posted 05-28-2015 11:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 826 by ringo, posted 05-28-2015 11:55 AM Faith has replied

  
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