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Author Topic:   Continuation of Flood Discussion
Tanypteryx
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Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 3 of 1304 (731261)
04-18-2014 10:59 AM


Moose,
Thanks for the links and information. I read Dr. A's Geology thread back when he was first posting it, but now I clearly need to read the whole thing again.
I always wanted to take a good geology course in college but I was focused on biology and entomology and never got around to it.
I spent most of last May travelling around the Southwest and photographed gobs of interesting geological formations.
This summer my grandson and I are going back for a month of photography, dragonfly hunting and Geology. We will be armed with a set of the Roadside Geology books and a copy of
Geology of the American Southwest: A Journey through Two Billion Years of Plate-Tectonic History by W. Scott Baldridge.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 148 of 1304 (731406)
05-09-2014 5:06 PM


Re: complexity of geology
Good grief.
Good grief indeed.
Obviously nobody is ALLOWED to think there might have been a worldwide Flood and you're going to see to it that such ideas never get a hearing.
Oh, you poor thing. Every time those awful Thought Police see you straining to think they rap your knuckles with a ruler.
And they let you spout your ideas for only 13 years, imagine, only 13 years, only 14,500 posts. The dirty so and sos.
Every time you repeat your ideas they always jump in and ask for evidence. The nerve of them, and then to top it off, they actually tell you about science and explain reality to you, like they expect you to learn something. How insulting!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 432 of 1304 (731690)
05-22-2014 10:55 AM


Re: Summation Time?
Percy, I have learned a lot from this thread.
If Edge still has answers to post I would like to see it remain open.
Is there any reason to hurry to close it?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 501 of 1304 (731759)
06-29-2014 1:14 PM


After the flood waters abated
The ground was dried. The flood was over. If there were standing bodies of water left over from the flood, they would now operate in ways we can relate to today. The vast majority of the erosional work needs to be done as the flood waters drained.
Where did the flood waters go? How could there be runoff if the whole planet is covered by water? Faith and the other YECs all talk about the flood causing erosion as if a plug was pulled and the flood water went down a drain.
Did it get sucked into a black hole or something? Water has to have a lower level to flow into before it can flow. If the whole planet is covered with water there is no lower level to flow into.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 506 of 1304 (731764)
06-29-2014 1:39 PM


"This man can't be seventy. Why, he's clearly very old. So in seventy years he'd be dead!"
I'm not talking about the future of the Dover Cliffs, which is what that remark implies, but that at the rate given by Percy they couldn't be existing NOW given OE assumptions of when they were formed, they'd long since have eroded away to nothing.
You are still not getting it....it went right over your head.
What are the OE assumptions of when they were formed? And do you mean when the material was deposited or when the erosion of the cliffs began?
The age of the material and the length of time to erode to their present state is more evidence that there was never a worldwide biblical flood.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 516 of 1304 (731774)
06-29-2014 1:58 PM


Let's see. According to Wikipedia theyre 300 to 350 feet in height, so any calculation based on Percy's rate would have them demolished long since.
The erosion being discussed is not lowering the elevation. It is erosion that widens the channel, so material is being aroded from the face of the cliffs.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 522 of 1304 (731780)
06-29-2014 2:33 PM


Let's get back to the hoodoos and the monuments.
The surrounding material began eroding millions of years after it was deposited.
The individual hoodoos are not very old or long lasting. Many, many, many hoodoos were formed (by erosion of surrounding material) and eroded away since Bryce Canyon began eroding.
The towers in Monument Valley are the few remnants that are left after millions of years of erosion of the surrounding materials. There are mounds (rounded buttes} thoughout the valley that are the remains of towers that are in a more eroded state than the towers that are still standing.
There is no evidence of your biblical flood in Monument Valley, or Bryce Canyon, or anywhere else, either in the deposition of material or the subsequent erosion. All the evidence is of vast amounts of time for these processes to occur.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 685 of 1304 (732107)
07-03-2014 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 680 by edge
07-03-2014 11:24 AM


Re: massive erosion after 100s of MYs of no massive erosion
I may be wrong, but most of the effects of receding floodwater that I've seen consists of a layer of mud. If that were to be washed away, then there needs to be some kind of impoundment or something to cause rapid runoff. So, where is that impoundment? Where are the scablands and the megadunes, etc.?
If Faith's erosive flood caused the spires and buttes in Monument Valley wouldn't they all have a characteristic teardrop shape, as seen from above? And I would expect that the shape would be relative to the direction of water flow.
All we have is expression of incredulity from Faith. The really sad part is that she thinks this to be evidence.
I want to thank you for everything you have posted. I have learned a lot and you have shown me and the lurking readers how truly absurd Faith's arguments are.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 680 by edge, posted 07-03-2014 11:24 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 693 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 12:35 PM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 707 by edge, posted 07-03-2014 1:43 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 696 of 1304 (732123)
07-03-2014 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 686 by Faith
07-03-2014 12:19 PM


Re: massive erosion after 100s of MYs of no massive erosion
Again, I think the best evidence that water was the agent of the erosion is the flat plain around the monuments. I know you think that over hundreds of millions of years somehow or other that flat plain would have formed just by the processes of normal wind and weathering erosion. Seems to me what that would have left is a very chunky landscape, not a plain. But of course I'm just an idiot who has been told many times I don't understand physics. Good thing I know better, but convincing anyone with a vested interest in the Old Earth is of course not happening.
Well, it turns out that what you think is completely wrong and not evidence for anything. There is NO FLAT PLAIN AROUND THE MONUMENTS!. I visited and photographed Monument Valley last Spring and saw with my own eyes that it is not a flat plain anywhere.
You just keep making this stuff up.
There is no evidence what so ever that the monuments were carved out of surrounding rock by a massive flow of water. The monuments are not oriented in the same direction as you would expect if there had been a massive flow of water.
The physics of the behavior of water and how it erodes rocks and landforms in massive floods is well understood. The evidence at Monument Valley clearly shows that a massive eroding flood never happend there.
Your descriptions of what you think is evidence that results from a flood clearly shows that you don't understand physics.
Physics shows that the layering of the sediments exposed in the Grand canyon and Monument Valley could never have been deposited in a single flood.
Physics shows that the erosion of the Grand Canyon and Monument Valley could never have been caused by a flood.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 686 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 12:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 699 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 1:06 PM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 700 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 1:12 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 697 of 1304 (732126)
07-03-2014 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 693 by Faith
07-03-2014 12:35 PM


Re: massive erosion after 100s of MYs of no massive erosion
What DO they look like from above?
They are randomly shaped with no directional orientation.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 693 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 12:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 698 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 1:05 PM Tanypteryx has not replied
 Message 737 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-03-2014 9:18 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 701 of 1304 (732135)
07-03-2014 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 699 by Faith
07-03-2014 1:06 PM


Re: massive erosion after 100s of MYs of no massive erosion
The page about Monument Valley DESCRIBES the area as a plain.
That may be, but it is not a flat or level plain.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 699 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 1:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 702 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 1:19 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 704 of 1304 (732141)
07-03-2014 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 700 by Faith
07-03-2014 1:12 PM


Re: massive erosion after 100s of MYs of no massive erosion
Here's a page that says it's a plain, not the one I remember, a different page, but it says the same thing.
MonumentValley.org » Geology
Great sandstone layers once covered this region, but erosion has left the valley a wide flat plain, interrupted by formations that rise high into the air.
When you look at the whole region the topography may seem flat because of the scale it is viewed from.
When you are on the ground driving or hiking it is rugged and anything but flat. It is crisscrossed by intersecting washes around still eroding hills.
It only appears relatively flat when viewed from far enough away that you can't see the washes and arroyos and low hills (remnants of eroded towers).

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 700 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 1:12 PM Faith has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 712 of 1304 (732155)
07-03-2014 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 709 by Faith
07-03-2014 1:54 PM


Re: massive erosion after 100s of MYs of no massive erosion
It IS evidence, as I acknowledged. But it doesn't kill the idea of water doing the erosion, it just suggests it didn't all run in one direction. Many different sources perhaps.
It is evidence that the erosion was not caused be your flood.
But it doesn't kill the idea of water doing the erosion
Correct. And wind and freezing and weathering.
it just suggests it didn't all run in one direction. Many different sources perhaps.
Correct again. Erosion from many different sources over million of years.
And of course this all happened after the millions of years it took for the multiple layers to be deposited.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 709 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 1:54 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 773 of 1304 (732277)
07-05-2014 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 772 by Faith
07-05-2014 6:40 PM


Re: Faith still has presented no evidence
Flood deposits strata
Water is standing over strata or strata are standing in water. This is not a running river.
Where did the material come from that makes up the strata?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 772 by Faith, posted 07-05-2014 6:40 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 837 of 1304 (732409)
07-07-2014 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 833 by edge
07-07-2014 10:11 AM


Re: Imagination rules in the sciences of the unwitnessed past
Here is an article with some stunning pictures:
http://www.geosciences.unl.edu/~dloope/pdf/GeologyToday.pdf
Thanks for posting that. I had forgotten about The Wave. It is one of the places I would like to photograph some day and I would need to plan well in advance.
In the Spring of last year I came through Snow Canyon north of St. George, UT and photographed the lithified dune formations there that are also Navajo sandstone. My grandson and I are going back down in a few weeks to photograph some more and then on to the Grand Canyon.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 833 by edge, posted 07-07-2014 10:11 AM edge has not replied

  
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