Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 114 (8789 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-22-2017 4:29 PM
354 online now:
Astrophile, Aussie, Diomedes, halibut, kjsimons, Phat (AdminPhat), Tangle (7 members, 347 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Porkncheese
Post Volume:
Total: 819,303 Year: 23,909/21,208 Month: 1,874/2,468 Week: 383/822 Day: 43/66 Hour: 1/0

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
2Next
Author Topic:   "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"
riVeRraT
Member
Posts: 5681
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1 of 22 (734087)
07-25-2014 11:33 AM


I was thinking (oh crap duck!) about the term "ignorance of the law is no excuse" and wondered if there is actually anyone who does know every single law. If there isn't, then ignorance of the law is actually an excuse. Reminds me of the verse "he who is without sin can throw the first stone". It seems after a little research, no one can actually even count how many laws there are, let alone know what they say. Here is an example:

http://blogs.loc.gov/...tion-how-many-federal-laws-are-there

Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-25-2014 11:42 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded
 Message 3 by 1.61803, posted 07-25-2014 12:14 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 08-29-2017 5:02 PM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 16 by Pressie, posted 09-04-2017 5:13 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 2 of 22 (734088)
07-25-2014 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-25-2014 11:33 AM


I was thinking (oh crap duck!) about the term "ignorance of the law is no excuse" and wondered if there is actually anyone who does know every single law. If there isn't, then ignorance of the law is actually an excuse.

It might be an excuse for why you broke the law, but it does not excuse you from the legal ramifications of breaking the law.

That being said, there's still the whole Mens rea thing that can be used as a defense in some cases.

Too, the judge can consider your ignorance during the sentencing and for a first time offender you might get a lesser punishment.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-25-2014 11:33 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2714
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 3 of 22 (734093)
07-25-2014 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-25-2014 11:33 AM


Hi riverrat.

If ignorance of the law could exhonorate someone then there would be no need for a justice system.

It behooves one to familiarize themselves of the state statutes on driving, weapons and such.

For example it is illegal in Texas to carry on ones person a bowie knife.
Also if the knife is greater than 5 1/2 inches long it is considered a illegal knife. That puts most fillet knives into the illegal category.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-25-2014 11:33 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9756
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 4 of 22 (818495)
08-29-2017 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-25-2014 11:33 AM


Hello riVeRraT
Is that you I see?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-25-2014 11:33 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by riVeRraT, posted 08-30-2017 9:13 AM Phat has responded

  
riVeRraT
Member
Posts: 5681
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 5 of 22 (818553)
08-30-2017 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
08-29-2017 5:02 PM


Re: Hello riVeRraT
Haha. Apprently ignorance of the law is good enough for Clinton. Or was it intention?
Whats up phat!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 08-29-2017 5:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 08-30-2017 4:38 PM riVeRraT has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9756
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 6 of 22 (818577)
08-30-2017 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by riVeRraT
08-30-2017 9:13 AM


Ignorance In Office Or Change?
Apprently ignorance of the law is good enough for Clinton.
Are you a Trump supporter or are you simply anti-Clinton? Because I agree with the latter.

Jimmy Kimmel had a good monologue on the former.

Monologue+Commentary writes:

"I want to speak to those of you who voted for Donald Trump. And first of all, I want to say I get it. I actually do. You're unhappy with the way things were going. You wanted someone to come in and shake things up. You didn't want business as usual. Nothing ever seems to get done. It's always the same. These candidates make a lot of promises that go nowhere. It happens over and over again. And you're sick of it."
A terrific summation of how Trump won. People felt like things were never going to change. They were in the mood to take a risk. And Trump -- from his lack of experience to his willingness to veer way, way, way off the political script -- felt like a real risk to people. They took it because they figured "How could Trump possibly do worse than the people we have in there now?"

"Everyone said he wouldn't (win). But he did. And it's exciting because this is your guy. You picked a horse like 35-1 and somehow it paid off."
The "I told you so" factor among those who voted for Trump is an underrated part of his supporters' undying loyalty to him. As Kimmel rightly notes, there is no greater feeling of self-satisfaction than siding with a guy -- or a team or a horse -- who everyone told you couldn't win but wound up doing just that. It's the basis of every underdog story ever. No one said we could do it! But we did! We proved everyone wrong! That is a very powerful feeling -- especially when you feel as though you've been told for decades to sit down and shut up by "elites" who insist they are smarter than you and know better than you.

* "He calls the Prime Minister of Australia and hangs up on him. He won't shake Angela Merkel's hand. He doesn't know Frederick Douglass isn't alive. He claims he can't release his tax returns because they're under audit, then says he's not going to release them at all."
This begins an extended riff by Kimmel on all the lines Trump has crossed in just his first 208 days in the White House. It's remarkable to consider the totality of transgressions of political norms that Trump has committed in such a short period of time. While he was quite clearly elected to break some of these norms, Trump seems committed to doing the exact opposite of what past presidents have done at every single turn. Literally.

* "He screws up royally every day. Sometimes two or three times a day. We can't keep up with it. Things come out of nowhere. Every day there's something nuts. But you've been trying to ignore it because you don't want to admit to these smug, annoying liberals that they were right. That's the last thing you want to do."
A real insight here by Kimmel. So much of Trump's support is not for Trump per se but for what Trump represents. To lots and lots of people who back Trump, it's because he is the person liberals hate, the person the media bashes, the person who is the antidote to political correctness run rampant. Ask these people whether they support Trump's personal conduct or tendency to pop off, and lots and lots of them will tell you they don't. (Two thirds of 2016 voters said Trump didn't have the right temperament to be president, according to exit polls. One in five of those people voted for him anyway!)
Voting for Trump was, for many people, a rejection of coastal elites, political correctness, and the status quo. That's why it's so difficult to walk away from Trump. Because, even if they disagree with how he has acted in office, they still believe in everything he symbolizes for them.

* "It's time, for especially you who voted for him, to tell him to go. Please. Think about it. He doesn't even want to be president. He's miserable. But he won't resign because his ego is too big. He can't do it."
I've always been VERY skeptical of the idea that a) Trump didn't really want to win or b) he will resign. Trump's entire life has been built on seeking the spotlight, on being the center of attention. Being president is the greatest thing that has ever happened to Trump. He is not going to walk away from it. (One other place where I disagree with Kimmel; I don't think Trump is miserable. I think he loves these feuds and battles.)
Kimmel is right that the only way Trump goes is if his base turns on him in any meaningful way. That hasn't happened yet. And, because of the factors Kimmel identifies above -- betting on a longshot, what Trump means to people -- I am very skeptical it will ever happen, no matter what Trump says or does going forward.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by riVeRraT, posted 08-30-2017 9:13 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by riVeRraT, posted 08-30-2017 11:29 PM Phat has responded

  
riVeRraT
Member
Posts: 5681
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 7 of 22 (818597)
08-30-2017 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
08-30-2017 4:38 PM


Re: Ignorance In Office Or Change?
Wow you just put a whole lot out there to respond to, and it's a bit off topic for this thread. I support most of what Trump does. I also agreed with 70% of what Bernie said, except the socialist part. I've always hated the Clintons.

For me it is not about left or right. It's about Globalism, and the NWO (new world order). The establishment that wants that is both Democrat and Republican. Trump and Bernie were not part of that, and is why Bernie got ousted, and Trump gets attacked daily. The establishment owns the media. It's all one big perpetrated lie.

At the beginning, Trump's ego may have had something to do with it, but he has been preaching the same things for over 30 years. He's had it in the back of his mind for at least that long. (watch he old Oprah interview). But something happened to him along the way. The American people believed in him, and his campaign became bigger than him. He was humbled by it. They were always considered good people, and could walk down the street in Manhattan on any given day. Now there are riots against him. Were did all that come from? Did you pay attention to the news before he got nominated? The media gave him millions of free press because the DNC (also establishment) wanted Trump to be the nominee. They thought they could take him down. Except wikileaks exposed who the DNC is. The whole things has been a narrative, a shitty "B" movie perpetrated by the establishment to take over this country. Well it didn't work, and like Kimmel said, the American people are tired of the bullshit. The narrative did not work, now they are trying to start a civil war. They have been brainwashing us for years in preparation for it. TV, media, news, shitty music, poorly designed housing that resembles a concentration camp. All mind control. They want you to conform. Its part of "group thinking". Harvard just put out a letter teaching us not to be part of that group.

Monday’s letter argues that “open-mindedness, critical thinking, and debate” are “our best antidotes to bigotry;” that a bigot is a person “who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices;” and that the only people who need fear open-minded inquiry and robust debate “are the actual bigots, including those on campuses or in the broader society who seek to protect the hegemony of their opinions by claiming that to question those opinions is itself bigotry.”

I give you antifa. Let me tell you, militia are getting ever closer to the edge of their seats, and lots of innocent brainwashed civilians are going to die if it keeps going. I can feel it about to happen. They have been quiet for a long time, and they are the ones who traditionally have been accused of being the violent ones. There is no shortage of hypocrisy today coming from the left. That is not the left I know or grew up under the influence of.

Paid protesters are real, but real people are following them. I even think some of the white supremacists groups are paid as well. After all we can't have civil war if only one side is fighting.

The establishment has been paid into by the NWO and lobbyist for decades. They lost that control they had. They will stop at nothing to get it back. Back in the 60's the progressive movement was started to get back at "the man". well "the man" these days are the NWO, but people are too blind to see, or they are just too busy being brainwashed by MTV. People are so stupid these days they put sunblock in their eyes to watch the solar eclipse.

Jimmey Kimmel is part of something he has no clue about. Comedy isn't even funny anymore, it's just hateful rhetoric. That speaks volumes about their mindset. Trump will get it together, or be killed trying. They are trying to control him from the inside. they want to take his twitter away. Trumps idiotic statements on twitter will go down as a blessing in disguise as he reveals the truth to the American public.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 08-30-2017 4:38 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-31-2017 11:44 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 08-31-2017 12:15 PM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 10 by Taq, posted 08-31-2017 12:42 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded
 Message 11 by Rrhain, posted 09-01-2017 4:36 AM riVeRraT has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1578
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 6.1


(1)
Message 8 of 22 (818625)
08-31-2017 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by riVeRraT
08-30-2017 11:29 PM


Re: Ignorance In Office Or Change?
riVeRraT writes:

Trumps idiotic statements on twitter will go down as a blessing in disguise as he reveals the truth to the American public.

Trump reveals the truth to the American public. Good one!


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by riVeRraT, posted 08-30-2017 11:29 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9756
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 9 of 22 (818631)
08-31-2017 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by riVeRraT
08-30-2017 11:29 PM


Re: Ignorance In Office Or Change?
RR writes:

Trump will get it together, or be killed trying. They are trying to control him from the inside. they want to take his twitter away.

Who is this phantom group known as "they"? Are they organized? Do we know who they are?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by riVeRraT, posted 08-30-2017 11:29 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by riVeRraT, posted 09-03-2017 11:56 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7140
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 10 of 22 (818636)
08-31-2017 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by riVeRraT
08-30-2017 11:29 PM


Re: Ignorance In Office Or Change?
riVeRraT writes:

I give you antifa. Let me tell you, militia are getting ever closer to the edge of their seats, and lots of innocent brainwashed civilians are going to die if it keeps going. I can feel it about to happen. They have been quiet for a long time, and they are the ones who traditionally have been accused of being the violent ones. There is no shortage of hypocrisy today coming from the left. That is not the left I know or grew up under the influence of.

Yeah, just look at this anti-fascist. EVIL!!!!

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by riVeRraT, posted 08-30-2017 11:29 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6149
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 11 of 22 (818696)
09-01-2017 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by riVeRraT
08-30-2017 11:29 PM


Re: Ignorance In Office Or Change?
riVeRraT writes:

quote:
I give you antifa.

What about them?

You do understand that they are not part of the left, yes? They are anarchists. They have been denounced by the left.

But hey, anything to distract from the white supremacists and neo-Nazis that are actively courted by the right.

As you say...ignorance is sufficient excuse for you, isn't it?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by riVeRraT, posted 08-30-2017 11:29 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by riVeRraT, posted 09-03-2017 11:57 PM Rrhain has responded

    
riVeRraT
Member
Posts: 5681
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 12 of 22 (818884)
09-03-2017 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
08-31-2017 12:15 PM


Re: Ignorance In Office Or Change?
They are the establishment. The globalists. The NWO. This is no longer conspiracy theory, it is fact now. They have admitted it themselves, over and over.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 08-31-2017 12:15 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Rrhain, posted 09-04-2017 2:30 AM riVeRraT has responded

  
riVeRraT
Member
Posts: 5681
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 13 of 22 (818885)
09-03-2017 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Rrhain
09-01-2017 4:36 AM


Re: Ignorance In Office Or Change?
Rrhain writes:

You do understand that they are not part of the left, yes? They are anarchists. They have been denounced by the left.

Nope sorry, didn't get that memo. Plenty on the left have not denounced it, and are in fact funding it. Glad you denounced it.

Why is it you can denounce antifa but I cannot denounce white supremacy?

Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Rrhain, posted 09-01-2017 4:36 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Rrhain, posted 09-04-2017 2:24 AM riVeRraT has responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6149
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 14 of 22 (818892)
09-04-2017 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by riVeRraT
09-03-2017 11:57 PM


Re: Ignorance In Office Or Change?
riVeRraT responds to me:

quote:
quote:
You do understand that they are not part of the left, yes? They are anarchists. They have been denounced by the left.

Nope sorry, didn't get that memo.


Yep...just like I pegged you for: Ignorance is OK for you but not for others. So long as you can claim you didn't know, then you can claim you're innocent.

That's a talking point you've got there, that somehow Antifa is part of the left and that somehow the left is responsible for them and need to denounce them in order to maintain legitimacy.

All of that is predicated upon a desperate attempt to distract and avoid the reality of the situation: The right has actively courted white supremacists and neo-Nazis. There's a reason that Tump, when talking about supposed violence committed by the left upon the neo-Nazis in Charlottesville, said that they came for" us."

"Us," Mr. Trump? So you do, indeed, claim the white supremacists and neo-Nazis as part of your group.

You need to stop watching Fox/Breitbart/Stormfront. They are lying to you. Antifa is not the left. They are anarchists. That's from their own mouths. Thus, while it is pleasant for the left to denounce them (which they have), they are not the responsibility of the left any more than they are the responsibility of the right.

There is no "alt-left." No matter how much Trump whines about it, there isn't. It is a conservative talking point designed to lay claim to a false equivalency and distract from the reality of the situation: The right has actively courted white supremacists and neo-Nazis.

Quick question: When the right and the left gather for protest rallies, which is the side that brings the guns, shields, military gear, etc.?

And in case you still haven't bothered to do your homework on Antifa and thus wish to continue to pretend that you are innocent in your ignorance:

“They have no allegiance to liberal democracy”: an expert on antifa explains the group

quote:
Plenty on the left have not denounced it, and are in fact funding it.

And you prove my point. You need to stop watching Fox/Breitbart/Stormfront. They are lying to you. There is no funding of antifa from the left.

quote:
Why is it you can denounce antifa but I cannot denounce white supremacy?

Does the word "credibility" mean anything to you? After all, you just claimed that somehow antifa is funded by the left. Trump didn't have any credibility when he read the prepared statement made for him regarding the events in Charlottesville since it was made only in the aftermath of his statement supporting them the day before and then again his statement supporting them the day after. Given your history, what makes you think your statement has any credibility?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by riVeRraT, posted 09-03-2017 11:57 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2017 10:29 PM Rrhain has responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6149
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 15 of 22 (818893)
09-04-2017 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by riVeRraT
09-03-2017 11:56 PM


Re: Ignorance In Office Or Change?
riVeRraT responds to Phat:

quote:
quote:
Who is this phantom group known as "they"? Are they organized? Do we know who they are?

They are the establishment. The globalists. The NWO. This is no longer conspiracy theory, it is fact now. They have admitted it themselves, over and over.


Could you explain your undefined term in something other than an undefined term? Who is this "establishment"? Who are these "globalists"? Exactly who is the "New World Order" of which you speak? If they have "admitted it," then surely you could provide a quote.

Where are these "facts"? Surely you have something concrete, do you not?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by riVeRraT, posted 09-03-2017 11:56 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by riVeRraT, posted 09-04-2017 10:14 PM Rrhain has responded

    
1
2Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017