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Author Topic:   EM space drive
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 16 of 51 (735172)
08-06-2014 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by NosyNed
08-06-2014 2:05 PM


Re: wrong
I agree with what you said.
But I'm not sure if what I said was wrong, though... or even if it conflicts with what you said?
I agree that what I said was not "the whole picture," though, if that's your point.
I was just trying to give a back-of-the-napkin feeling for "Newtons" for most people to try and understand them.
It's not my fault that most football player's hits are not constant...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by NosyNed, posted 08-06-2014 2:05 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 51 (735173)
08-06-2014 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dogmafood
08-05-2014 8:23 AM


It is enough to provide 2 oz of thrust or force given the test parameters. If applied to an object in space it could move very large objects.
Maybe this will help. Two oz of thrust will accelerate a 2oz object the same way a 2oz object is accelerated when if falls off of your desk. Heavier objects will be accelerated proportionately less.
As your description implies, it does not take any amount of force to move an object in space. Any net force on an object, however tiny, will accelerate an object, and the object will continue to move until another force acts on it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Dogmafood, posted 08-05-2014 8:23 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Dogmafood, posted 08-07-2014 7:39 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 51 (735176)
08-06-2014 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by New Cat's Eye
08-06-2014 2:20 PM


Re: wrong
Jon was asking about applications here on the ground...
Being on the ground does not matter.
The question of how much force it takes to move an object is nonsensical unless you talk about all of the forces on an object. Two ounces of thrust can move a 2 oz object upward in earth's gravitational field, but that same 2 oz thrust can also move accelerate a locomotive across a friction free surface.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-06-2014 2:20 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-06-2014 3:56 PM NoNukes has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 51 (735177)
08-06-2014 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by NoNukes
08-06-2014 3:39 PM


Re: wrong
Jon was asking about applications here on the ground...
Being on the ground does not matter.
Uh, gravity and friction would certainly play a role in how much stuff you could move with 2 ounces of force.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by NoNukes, posted 08-06-2014 3:39 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by NoNukes, posted 08-06-2014 7:04 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 51 (735185)
08-06-2014 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by New Cat's Eye
08-06-2014 3:56 PM


Re: wrong
Uh, gravity and friction would certainly play a role in how much stuff you could move with 2 ounces of force.
Did you read just half of my comment before responding? Did I not address everything you mentioned?
How much weight do you think you can move with 2 oz of thrust CS assuming we conduct the experiment at ground level? Is there any universal answer?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-06-2014 3:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-06-2014 7:23 PM NoNukes has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 51 (735187)
08-06-2014 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by NoNukes
08-06-2014 7:04 PM


Re: wrong
Did you read just half of my comment before responding? Did I not address everything you mentioned?
I read it all. The stuff you said after what we were talking about, i.e. "being on the ground", had nothing to do with it.
How much weight do you think you can move with 2 oz of thrust CS assuming we conduct the experiment at ground level?
Not much. I doubt you could move my dick with it
Is there any universal answer?
Pretty much, for the one for down here on the ground... where gravity and friction would certainly play a role...
That's what I meant. That's what was being talked about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by NoNukes, posted 08-06-2014 7:04 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2014 12:50 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 375 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 22 of 51 (735198)
08-07-2014 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by NoNukes
08-06-2014 3:34 PM


Net force
I wonder how much juice it took to get the 50 mN of thrust. Wiki says
quote:
The total force exerted on an 800 by 800 meter solar sail, for example, is about 5 newtons (1.1 lbf) at Earth's distance from Sol,[2]
Could you generate enough electricity to overcome the force of a solar wind and fly directly at the sun?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by NoNukes, posted 08-06-2014 3:34 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2014 4:10 PM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 51 (735223)
08-07-2014 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by New Cat's Eye
08-06-2014 7:23 PM


Re: wrong
Pretty much, for the one for down here on the ground... where gravity and friction would certainly play a role...
That's what I meant. That's what was being talked about.
I note that you did not specify this "universal answer" despite your claim that there is one. Well, your answer is wrong. There is no limit to the amount of weight that two oz of thrust can move here on earth. F= ma applies everywhere.
The link below is to an experiment for measuring the gravitational constant by measuring the motion of a pair of 38 gram masses being attracted gravitationally by a pair of 1.5kg mass. A measurable motion of the 38 gram masses was obtained despite the fact that the forces involved are on the order of 7 * 10-10 N. I'll note that the experiment was conducted on earth and not in outer space.
http://www.phys.utk.edu/...asco%20Cavendish%20Experiment.pdf
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-06-2014 7:23 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-07-2014 2:03 PM NoNukes has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 51 (735225)
08-07-2014 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by NoNukes
08-07-2014 12:50 PM


Re: wrong
The link below is to an experiment for measuring the gravitational constant by measuring the motion of a pair of 38 gram masses being attracted gravitationally by a pair of 1.5kg mass.
I remember hearing about that experiment in a physics class in college.
There is no limit to the amount of weight that two oz of thrust can move here on earth. F= ma applies everywhere.
That's not what is being talked about, this is:
quote:
quote:
quote:
but I don't really understand just how much power the research in these articles is reporting.
What's 720 mN of thrust? How about 30-50 micro-Newtons?
Could this have applications on the ground?
According to the one article, the 720 mnt is 72 grams of thrust.
that's a bit more than 2 oz.
So it's enough to move 2 oz. worth of material?
They're talking about using an EmDrive for some kind of ground vehicle, like a car or something.
There's just not enough thrust there for that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2014 12:50 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by xongsmith, posted 08-07-2014 3:23 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2014 3:51 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2587
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 25 of 51 (735228)
08-07-2014 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by New Cat's Eye
08-07-2014 2:03 PM


Re: wrong
CS posits:
They're talking about using an EmDrive for some kind of ground vehicle, like a car or something.
But isn't the OP link titled
Nasa validates 'impossible' space drive
??

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-07-2014 2:03 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-07-2014 3:29 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 51 (735230)
08-07-2014 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by xongsmith
08-07-2014 3:23 PM


Re: wrong
Yes, and then another member asked if it had applications on the ground.
It does not, currently.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by xongsmith, posted 08-07-2014 3:23 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 51 (735231)
08-07-2014 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by New Cat's Eye
08-07-2014 2:03 PM


Re: wrong
So it's enough to move 2 oz. worth of material?
See that question at the very end of the material you quoted? What is the answer to that question?
They're talking about using an EmDrive for some kind of ground vehicle, like a car or something.
Apparently, that's what you decided the issue was. The answer to the question Jon actually asked was given correctly by Nosy Ned.
And as for the question of whether having a very small thrust generator without an impulse mass can have applications on the ground, if the only issue that comes to minds is whether you can drive a car with 2 oz of thrust, you are not being very imaginative.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-07-2014 2:03 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-07-2014 4:01 PM NoNukes has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 51 (735232)
08-07-2014 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by NoNukes
08-07-2014 3:51 PM


Re: wrong
Apparently, that's what you decided the issue was. The answer to the question Jon actually asked was given correctly by Nosy Ned.
Is the question you ask just literally the words that you type, or is the question you ask the one that you mean?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2014 3:51 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2014 4:06 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 51 (735234)
08-07-2014 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by New Cat's Eye
08-07-2014 4:01 PM


Re: wrong
Is the question you ask just literally the words that you type, or is the question you ask the one that you mean?
Jon's question was whether he should interpret the 2 oz of thrust to mean that only 2 oz of material can be moved. What's the correct answer to that question?
Then you interpret that to mean that Jon is only asking about applications for ground vehicles? Where do you get that?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-07-2014 4:01 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-07-2014 4:29 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 51 (735235)
08-07-2014 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Dogmafood
08-07-2014 7:39 AM


Re: Net force
Could you generate enough electricity to overcome the force of a solar wind and fly directly at the sun?
I suppose that the easy answer is that you could fly into the sun if you were far enough away. Sail power falls off with distance from the sun, but the thruster would not.
And of course there may be an opportunity to scale up the force generated assuming that it is real.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Dogmafood, posted 08-07-2014 7:39 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
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