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Author Topic:   More on Diet and Carbohydrates
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 237 (758514)
05-27-2015 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Percy
05-27-2015 12:52 PM


Re: Demonstrating that Saturated Fat Doesn't Cause Heart Disease
Vegetable based fats (polyunsaturated fats like corn oil, and excluding the few monounsaturated fats like olive oil) are the ones that were touted as better for you for so long, and this includes the partially hydrogenated fats that were eventually discovered to contain dangerous trans-fats that can substitute for normal fats in cell walls and disrupt the cell's ability to regulate what passes in and out, and that's not the only risk, just the one we understand best.

To be fair, hydrogenated oils don't occur naturally in vegetables. They are the product of hydrogenationthe artificial saturation of oils by boiling them in nickel and hydrogen.

Trans fats are the result. They are a health nightmare, particularly the ones produced from the hydrogenation process. They occur naturally in meats of ruminants, like beef, but I believe they are slightly different and so not as damaging to health as the ones produced as a byproduct of hydrogenation of vegetable oils.

This isn't a problem with vegetable oils themselves.

The shift away from partially hydrogenated fats has led to greater use of hydrogenated fats that introduce a host of artificial fatty acids whose health effects have not yet been studied but which are deemed healthy simply because of the logic that because they're derived from vegetable sources that they must be healthy. But dangerous trans-fats also derived from vegetable sources, therefore this logic is wrong. We know no more today about the dangers of fully hydrogenated fats in our foods than we did about the partially hydrogenated fats in our foods 20 years ago.

This is the unfortunate thing. The FDA has had a ban on partially hydrogenated oils under consideration for a while now. They were ready to implement the ban earlier last year, but the food industry pushed for a period of 'public input', which has effectively tabled the FDA's actions on the matter.

The food industry is also likely responsible for the exception of fully hydrogenated oils from the ban and not some wild beliefs that coming from vegetables makes things better.

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Percy, posted 05-27-2015 12:52 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Omnivorous, posted 05-27-2015 10:06 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15737
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 152 of 237 (758515)
05-27-2015 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Faith
03-09-2015 5:55 PM


Re: Muffin or Flaky Pastry Type?
Faith writes:

... I used to meet friends at a local bakery for coffee and something sweet and discovered that there are people who love muffins, heavy muffins with raisins and nuts or cranberries or some such, and I really not only wouldn't choose them but almost dislike them -- too dry and crumbly for me.


I never understood those TV commercials for cake mixes that were "light and moist". My mother (German background) made cakes that would soak up a whole quart of milk.

(There's a running joke among my cousins that if you have flour and lard you can cook German food.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Faith, posted 03-09-2015 5:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Percy, posted 05-27-2015 6:08 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17965
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 153 of 237 (758521)
05-27-2015 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by ringo
05-27-2015 4:16 PM


Re: Muffin or Flaky Pastry Type?
ringo writes:

(There's a running joke among my cousins that if you have flour and lard you can cook German food.)

The Big Fat Surprise describes how in the early 20th century before the invention of the process of hydrogenation and the rise of Crisco that the recipes for many baked goods and pie crusts called for lard. The introduction of vegetable oils and the shift away from saturated fats forced the food industry to reformulate their products and caused a reworking of all the recipes in cookbooks.

Interestingly, returning to lard introduces difficulties that didn't used to exist. This past Memorial Day weekend we made mayonnaise from bacon lard and used it to make potato salad which we then stuck in the fridge. At mealtime we discovered that at refrigerator temperatures lard is a solid. We had to wait for the potato salad to warm up before we could eat it.

I just did a quick read of the Wikipedia article on lard, and it mentions in a couple places that lard is making a little bit of a comeback here and there, such as at high end restaurants.

If the first table in that article is to be believed then none of the cooking fats/oils is purely one type of fat. This leads me to wonder how it is possible for a food product to have 0% saturated fats and non-zero amounts of unsaturated fats if all fats/oils have at least some amount of saturated fats. The oil lowest in saturated fat is sunflower oil at 11%.

--Percy


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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 942 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(1)
Message 154 of 237 (758523)
05-27-2015 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Jon
05-27-2015 4:07 PM


Re: Demonstrating that Saturated Fat Doesn't Cause Heart Disease
Jon writes:

The food industry is also likely responsible for the exception of fully hydrogenated oils from the ban and not some wild beliefs that coming from vegetables makes things better.

Well, sure.

Grease is speech.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

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 Message 151 by Jon, posted 05-27-2015 4:07 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17965
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


(3)
Message 155 of 237 (762160)
07-09-2015 12:38 PM


Is fat's bad rap finally coming to an end?
In today's New York Times researchers Dariush Mozaffarian, MD, DrPH1 and David S. Ludwig, MD, PhD argue that it is well past time for the federal government to lift their restrictions on dietary fat (Why Is the Federal Government Afraid of Fat?). They reference their article in the Journal of the American Medical Association (The 2015 US Dietary Guidelines: Lifting the Ban on Total Dietary Fat, unfortunately all but the first page is behind a paywall) and argue that past guidelines have been arguably unhealthy by encouraging increased consumption of carbohydrates and by limiting consumption of a nutrient that better evidence is showing was never bad for us in the first place.

Most significant excerpt from page 1 of the JAMA article:

JAMA writes:

"Randomized trials confirm that diets higher in healthful fats, replacing carbohydrate or protein and exceeding the current 35% fat limit, reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease. The 2015 DGAC report tacitly acknowledges the lack of convincing evidence to recommend low-fat-high-carbohydrate diets for the general public in the prevention or treatment of any major health outcome, including heart diesease, stroke, cancer, diabetes, or obestiy. This major advance allows nutrition policy to be refocused toward the major dietary drivers of chronic deseases."

Bottom line: When you see products labeled "Low Fat" or "Reduced Fat" in the grocery store, leave them be. Better to buy food based on how little processing was involved and how few refined carbohydrates it contains. Cold cuts, cookies, nacho chips, Sugar Frosted Flakes, stay away and instead welcome steak, regular cheese, eggs, whole milk, fruit and anything truly made with whole grains.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Coyote, posted 07-09-2015 9:46 PM Percy has responded

    
Coyote
Member (Idle past 80 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 156 of 237 (762245)
07-09-2015 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Percy
07-09-2015 12:38 PM


Re: Is fat's bad rap finally coming to an end?
Bacon! You forgot bacon!

I do four strips of bacon for breakfast many days--and nothing else. I don't need lunch after that as the brain thinks its no longer hungry. Other days may be sausage.

And I cut out bread, pasta, sugar, processed foods and most other related carbs.

Once a week I go out for breakfast and have a nice bacon, mushroom, and cheddar cheese omelet with country potatoes, and that's about the main carb load for the whole week.

Result--lost 25 lbs in one year, from 190 to 165. And feeling fine.

And I resumed sabre fencing after a 35 year break.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Percy, posted 07-09-2015 12:38 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Faith, posted 07-09-2015 10:33 PM Coyote has responded
 Message 159 by Percy, posted 07-10-2015 7:16 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 157 of 237 (762250)
07-09-2015 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Coyote
07-09-2015 9:46 PM


Re: Is fat's bad rap finally coming to an end?
That's the way to do it. I did it myself and then went back to carbs, at least bread for a hamburger, and pasta.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Coyote, posted 07-09-2015 9:46 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Coyote, posted 07-09-2015 11:17 PM Faith has responded

    
Coyote
Member (Idle past 80 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 158 of 237 (762258)
07-09-2015 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Faith
07-09-2015 10:33 PM


Re: Is fat's bad rap finally coming to an end?
I have bread, usually in a hamburger or garlic bread with a steak, maybe once a month.

If you are doing the basic "bacon diet" with lots of fats, the occasional hamburger bun or whatever is no big deal.

I think the trick is getting off of the sugar/insulin cycle where you have the ups and downs, with each down causing you to want more of some kind of sugar to get back up.

But everyone is different, so you have to see what works for you.

Me, I like bacon!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Faith, posted 07-09-2015 10:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 07-11-2015 11:14 AM Coyote has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17965
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 159 of 237 (762266)
07-10-2015 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Coyote
07-09-2015 9:46 PM


Re: Is fat's bad rap finally coming to an end?
Coyote writes:

Bacon! You forgot bacon!

D'oh!

Bacon *is* a processed food, and there *are* health concerns about bacon (something about nitrates) and processed foods in general, but I'm wary of the conclusions of health research, plus the processing associated with foods like bacon and sausage (at least when purchased at the butcher shop instead of in plastic wrap at the supermarket) is what I'll call "traditional," going back literally centuries and more.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Coyote, posted 07-09-2015 9:46 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 160 of 237 (762343)
07-11-2015 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Coyote
07-09-2015 11:17 PM


Re: Is fat's bad rap finally coming to an end?
I hope you are able to continue with your method because it obviously works. Something similar worked for me too, but I got carb cravings and now can't think of a way to get back to a reduced carb system that I could tolerate for long. I don't do sugar or floury foods or cereals or anything like that, but I do have a thing for hamburger on sourdough, quite a bit more often than once a month, and pasta as a side dish with almost anything, and that's all it took to put back the weight I'd lost. It's nice to know there are people who can stick to the low carb diet though, and maybe I'll get inspired again.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Coyote, posted 07-09-2015 11:17 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Coyote, posted 07-11-2015 11:23 AM Faith has responded
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 07-16-2015 10:39 AM Faith has responded

    
Coyote
Member (Idle past 80 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 161 of 237 (762346)
07-11-2015 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Faith
07-11-2015 11:14 AM


Re: Is fat's bad rap finally coming to an end?
Maybe try a big salad instead of the pasta? Load it up with blue cheese as that adds fat content, and it seems that a lot of fat tells the brain it is satisfied.

Or maybe a cobb salad, with chicken, cheese, bacon, tomato, and all the rest. Make it big enough and you shouldn't be hungry!

That's what I do, but what works for one doesn't always work for others.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 07-11-2015 11:14 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 07-11-2015 11:43 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 162 of 237 (762350)
07-11-2015 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Coyote
07-11-2015 11:23 AM


Re: Is fat's bad rap finally coming to an end?
Well, that's good advice, I'll ponder it. Also keep wanting to get back to vegetable juices, which I love though they are a lot of work.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Coyote, posted 07-11-2015 11:23 AM Coyote has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17965
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 163 of 237 (762783)
07-16-2015 7:42 AM


Bad Research
"Restaurant food not much healthier than fast food" announces a recent article in Philly Voice. Researcher Ruopeng An, a professor of kinesiology and community health at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, reached this conclusion after data mining NHANES (National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey). Nothing wrong with data mining of this sort, but it made me just a bit curious when I didn't see carbohydrates in the list of factors and nutrients he focused on: calories, fat, saturated fat, cholesterol and sodium.

The bare essentials of his paper are on-line (Fast-food and full-service restaurant consumption and daily energy and nutrient intakes in US adults), and though the details are behind a paywall there was enough to confirm that he did indeed focus only on calories, fat, saturated fat, cholesterol and sodium.

But recent research indicates that saturated fat, cholesterol and sodium should not be on anyone's list of nutrients of concern. Dietary cholesterol has no effect on serum cholesterol. The body manufacturers its own cholesterol, we have known this for over half a century, and the USDA is finally acknowledging this and removing its advice to reduce dietary cholesterol from the Dietary Guidelines for Americans, 2015 that will be released later this year.

We're also learning that saturated fat is actually good for us, and that reducing sodium intake (translation: use less salt) has negative health impacts that we're finally beginning to understand, and that the body fights hard to retain sodium to a certain level.

Although Michael Pollan (he of The Omnivore's Dilemma and In Defense of Food) has not jumped on the "carbs are the cause of the diseases of western civilization" bandwagon, he was way out in front of the current paleo diet craze with his advice to eat the same foods as your great and great great grandparents, who followed no advice to reduce intake of saturated fat, cholesterol and sodium.

--Percy


    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11563
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(2)
Message 164 of 237 (762789)
07-16-2015 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Faith
07-11-2015 11:14 AM


Glycemic Index Watch
Faith writes:

I do have a thing for hamburger on sourdough...

I read somewhere that sourdough bread is actually better for diabetics because it breaks down a different way...lemme google...
Sourdough bread better for blood sugar control

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 07-11-2015 11:14 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 07-16-2015 1:54 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 165 of 237 (762835)
07-16-2015 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Phat
07-16-2015 10:39 AM


Re: Glycemic Index Watch
That's very interesting, Phat, thank you for the information. I do monitor my blood sugar, though not on any regular basis because it's remained pretty predictable for years, so I think I'll do some readings in relation to when I eat sourdough.
This message is a reply to:
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