Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 89 (8876 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-10-2018 5:50 AM
204 online now:
PaulK, Tangle, vimesey (3 members, 201 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Bill Holbert
Post Volume:
Total: 843,739 Year: 18,562/29,783 Month: 507/2,043 Week: 59/386 Day: 9/50 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1112131415
16
Author Topic:   More on Diet and Carbohydrates
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 226 of 237 (776113)
01-08-2016 7:01 PM


Pink Salt and Pickle Juice
I'm interested in hearing more about the new guidelines but it's pretty clear that they are very very slow to accommodate to what we've known for years about their rejection of saturated fats and acceptance of carbs. I keep sugar to an absolute minimum but I don't worry about salt, though maybe I'm wrong not to. After decades of being misled by all the official dietary recommendations I now pretty much eat whatever I want and that includes salt to taste, which is always more than "they" think advisable. My rough guideline is that if it tastes like it needs salt then it needs salt, and if it tastes too salty it is too salty.

I do read up some on the alternative diets out there these days though I have the same basic attitude to those, that if I like it I'll eat it and otherwise not.

Tom Brady has been in the diet news recently for his very contemporary semi-vegan diet, which you can read about HERE. They have a personal chef who describes it all. Avoiding "inflammatory" foods is usually an important part of these diets and he and his family avoid even tomatoes because they are considered to be inflammatory foods.

That sort of diet is big on alternative salts too. They reject the standard iodized table salt, speak of it as if it were some kind of poison, and recommend alternatives like sea salt, and in Brady's case "pink Himalayan salt." Martha Stewart also mentioned that particular salt, but she has the practical interest in how it tastes and didn't mention any health benefits. I dunno, salt is salt, right, chemically all the same stuff, right? Naturally occurring secondary flavors may make one or another more desirable I guess, but I don't see what any of that has to do with health

The only thing that interests me about inflammatory foods is whether they produce heartburn or not, because I'm susceptible to it. But I think I've found a cure in, believe it or not, pickle juice. I got a craving for the stuff a few weeks ago, which happens now and then, and went on from there to making my own because I can't eat that many pickles. Pickle juice comes down to water, vinegar and salt, and I think both the vinegar and salt are essential though other flavorings like garlic and dill can be used. Yes, vinegar. Acid vinegar, seems to be a cure for ...acid reflux. Weird but true.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Asgara, posted 01-08-2016 10:12 PM Faith has responded
 Message 230 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-09-2016 1:59 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 942 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 227 of 237 (776114)
01-08-2016 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Hyroglyphx
01-08-2016 5:56 PM


Re: 2015 Dietary Guidelines Released
Hyroglphx writes:

These recommendations change all the time. First they said cut fat from your diet, now they say "no, only cut certain fats from your diet but load up on others."

Don't forget that these guidelines are heavily lobbied by food and agricultural interests.

They're not telling us what their panel of experts think is best--they're telling us what could get through the lobby walls. The advisory committee drafted guidelines that take into account the increasingly clear link between red meat and processed meats and colon cancer; they also sought to highlight an environmentally sustainable diet. Both were nixed in response to lobbying.

We get guidelines that are the best available when filtered through lobbyists with no interest in our health.

The US Releases New Dietary Guidelines, And Experts Say They're Unclear

quote:
The guidelines, which influence public health policy, including decisions like how school lunch menus are created, will be in effect until the next set of guidelines is created in 2020. They are updated every five years based on recommendations from an advisory panel of scientists, doctors, and public health policy experts, and are supposed to include the latest evidence-based recommendations for food consumption for the public. This year, for instance, the government came down hard on sugar and lifted its warnings on cholesterol, but refrained from making any bold statements on red meat just months after the World Health Organization announced new warnings on the link between red meat and cancer.

The disparity between the US guidelines and those of other groups, as well as the frequent changes to the guidelines, have led to a sense of distrust among Americans, according to some experts and critics, who say that the influence of the food industry and politicians in determining what guidelines actually get passed along to the public undercut their authority. And the American public, they say, desperately needs clarity: more than one-third of Americans are obese, according to the Centers for Disease Control.

"Some parts of it I think you can trust and other parts I question the intentions," said Vasenti Malik, a researcher in the nutrition department at Harvard's T.H. Chan School of Public Health.


School lunches until 2020--don't worry, kids, plenty of hot dogs and ass cancers for all, courtesy of K Street.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-08-2016 5:56 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-09-2016 2:03 AM Omnivorous has not yet responded

    
Asgara
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


(1)
Message 228 of 237 (776120)
01-08-2016 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Faith
01-08-2016 7:01 PM


Re: Pink Salt and Pickle Juice
Most chefs, I believe, cook with kosher salt and maybe use a finishing salt like fleur de sel and the pink stuff for putting on finished foods for taste.

One chef I have been following for some time now says iodized salt has no place in the kitchen as cooking with it can cause off flavors I believe.... He said iodine isn't needed as an add on any more as most people get more than enough in a regular diet.

I may not be presenting this correctly... brain not working tonight. I'll try and remember to look up the seasoning class I'm thinking of.


Asgara
"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!

http://apaininmyass.wordpress.com/


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Faith, posted 01-08-2016 7:01 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Faith, posted 01-08-2016 10:40 PM Asgara has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 229 of 237 (776124)
01-08-2016 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Asgara
01-08-2016 10:12 PM


Re: Pink Salt and Pickle Juice
Interesting, thanks. Sounds right that the specialty salts would be for gourmet purposes.

I wonder how many even know that iodine was originally added because so many people had thyroid problems that were prevented by the addition. The attitude among people I know seems to be that it's not good for us, that's why we should use sea salt or whatever the fashionable salt of the day happens to be.

When I make the pickle juice I have to avoid iodized salt if only because it makes the liquid cloudy, so I use kosher salt, and I also have to use purified or distilled water because regular chlorinated tap water mixed with the vinegar and/or salt makes the brew smell peculiarly bad.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Asgara, posted 01-08-2016 10:12 PM Asgara has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5603
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.5


(2)
Message 230 of 237 (776126)
01-09-2016 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Faith
01-08-2016 7:01 PM


Re: Pink Salt and Pickle Juice
The only thing that interests me about inflammatory foods is whether they produce heartburn or not, because I'm susceptible to it. But I think I've found a cure in, believe it or not, pickle juice. I got a craving for the stuff a few weeks ago, which happens now and then, and went on from there to making my own because I can't eat that many pickles. Pickle juice comes down to water, vinegar and salt, and I think both the vinegar and salt are essential though other flavorings like garlic and dill can be used. Yes, vinegar. Acid vinegar, seems to be a cure for ...acid reflux. Weird but true.

Pickle juice is a common remedy for marathon runners and other endurance athletes who need to replenish electrolytes after a grueling workout. It supposedly helps tremendously with cramps as well.

Obviously we need sodium in our body, but the law of diminishing returns also applies. Dialing in the perfect amount for Ph balance can be a little tricky and no doubt varies from person to person, but I too believe there is some merit to feeding a craving. A craving seems to be your body's way of alerting a deficiency. After a long workout on not enough food, I sometimes crave something like steak and sweet potato. That tells me that I need dense calories with a high saturated fat content, protein, and complex (good) carbs to replenish what was lost.

So if your body is screaming for pickle juice, I say listen to what it is saying!


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Faith, posted 01-08-2016 7:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5603
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 231 of 237 (776127)
01-09-2016 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Omnivorous
01-08-2016 7:12 PM


Re: 2015 Dietary Guidelines Released
Don't forget that these guidelines are heavily lobbied by food and agricultural interests.

They're not telling us what their panel of experts think is best--they're telling us what could get through the lobby walls. The advisory committee drafted guidelines that take into account the increasingly clear link between red meat and processed meats and colon cancer; they also sought to highlight an environmentally sustainable diet. Both were nixed in response to lobbying.

Yeah, which is a real shame because the consumer never really gets an informed decision from what is supposed to be an objective source. Reminds of me doctors taking kickbacks from pharmaceutical companies to push a drug that will probably kill you.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Omnivorous, posted 01-08-2016 7:12 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17965
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


(3)
Message 232 of 237 (776145)
01-09-2016 11:11 AM


I Read the 2015 Guidelines
I've read the 2015 Dietary Guidelines for Americans, and here is my review. The headings are links to sections, subsections, diagrams, etc., in the report. I of course only focus on those things of which I am critical. Also, the guidelines are very repetitive. I'll only comment on a particular advice the first time I encounter it.

Message from the Secretaries

quote:
Its recommendations are ultimately intended to help individuals improve and maintain overall health and reduce the risk of chronic disease.

By "chronic diseases" it means the diseases of western civilization: cancer, stroke, obesity and diabetes. Through the first half of the 20th century the belief formed that these diseases had increased in frequency in western-style economies due to changes in diet. The Dietary Guidelines for Americans, issued every five years since 1980 (Index to Past Guidelines), were a response to that threat.

quote:
Now more than ever, we recognize the importance of focusing not on individual nutrients or foods in isolation, but on everything we eat and drink.

Sounds good.

Executive Summary

quote:
The statute (Public Law 101-445, 7 U.S.C. 5341 et seq.) requires that the Dietary Guidelines be based on the preponderance of current scientific and medical knowledge.

Oh, well. They can claim they followed "current scientific and medical knowledge," but obviously their current advice is heavily influenced by their past advice, by old research, and by lobbying groups.

quote:
The 2015-2020 edition of the Dietary Guidelines builds from the 2010 edition with revisions based on the Scientific Report of the 2015 Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee and consideration of Federal agency and public comments.

At some future date I hope to read the Scientific Report and compare it to the guidelines, but we already know from news reports that they ignored some of the findings.

The Guidelines

quote:
  1. Limit calories from added sugars and saturated fats and reduce sodium intake. Consume an eating pattern low in added sugars, saturated fats, and sodium. Cut back on foods and beverages higher in these components to amounts that fit within healthy eating patterns.

Here's the first mention of reducing intake of saturated fats. A growing body of research indicates that the advice to avoid saturated fats could be misplaced and wrong. Saturated fats are very likely a healthy component of a normal diet, not essential, but one of a collection of healthy nutrient alternatives.

Key Recommendations

quote:
  • Fruits, especially whole fruits

This is good advice, but they need a caveat about moderation and fruit types because of fructose. This is just the Executive Summary, so it's fine that they don't get into such details here.

quote:
  • Grains, at least half of which are whole grains

On the surface this advice doesn't seem too bad, but a little analysis reveals that it is horrible. This is about carbohydrates. Refined grains are as bad as sugar and should be avoided. Most food labeled "whole grains" should also be avoided because the food industry has lobbied the FDA for weaker labeling so that they can place the "whole grain" label on foods that in reality contain refined grains. There are true whole grain foods out there, but they aren't easy to find, and few will be on mainline grocery store shelves.

quote:
  • Fat-free or low-fat dairy, including milk, yogurt, cheese, and/or fortified soy beverages

More horrible advice. Fat from natural sources is good for you, especially dairy fat. Eat regular milk, regular yogurt, regular cheese, etc. Forget soy beverages unless you like them or have a food allergy.

quote:
  • A variety of protein foods, including seafood, lean meats and poultry, eggs, legumes (beans and peas), and nuts, seeds, and soy products

This advice is very good, except for the part about lean meats. The emphasis on lean meats is driven by a desire to reduce saturated fat, which as I've said is likely good for you. Walking down the meat isle is to witness a tragedy, especially for beef, but it is also true of pork and chicken. The marbling once so desired and so common in even the finest meats has largely disappeared. Only the cheapest cuts have any significant fat marbling.

Research does indicate a connection between red meat and colorectal cancer, but a great deal of that research should be viewed skeptically because it is old and from the era when they thought fat was evil. The Cattle Association's lobbying should be viewed as skeptically as other food lobbies, but it is likely that red meat was painted with the same broad brush as all other food containing fat. Red meat is a rich source of protein, iron, B12 and other nutrients, and it needn't be avoided or limited.

One prudent advice I've seen is to avoid cooking red meat quickly over high heat. Evidently unhealthy chemicals can form at high heat. More gradual cooking is better.

The advice doesn't mention processed meats, but obviously avoid processed meats.

quote:
A healthy eating pattern limits:

  • Saturated fats and trans fats, added sugars, and sodium

Trans fats should be eliminated from all diets. They are known to be dangerous. They were developed from vegetable oils in the belief that anything derived from vegetables must be healthy, or at least not dangerous. This has proved untrue in the extreme.

The trans fat revolution began in the 1910's with the introduction of Crisco, and very quickly American cooking transitioned from cooking with animal fats to cooking with vegetable oils. From a health standpoint this was a critical mistake. The safest fats to cook with are animal fats, the next safest is olive oil, the next safest is palm oil. Olive oil and palm oil are both low in polyunsaturated fats, which turns out to be the dangerous component of vegetable oils.

quote:
  • Consume less than 10 percent of calories per day from saturated fats

Bad, bad advice. Ignore. See comments above.

quote:
  • Consume less than 2,300 milligrams (mg) per day of sodium

Don't go crazy, too much of anything is bad for you, but unless you have health problems related to salt or sodium you can safely ignore this advice.

Terms To Know (click on "more")

quote:
Nutrient denseA characteristic of foods and beverages that provide vitamins, minerals, and other substances that contribute to adequate nutrient intakes or may have positive health effects, with little or no solid fats and added sugars, refined starches, and sodium. Ideally, these foods and beverages also are in forms that retain naturally occurring components, such as dietary fiber.

They only define three terms in this section. I'm surprised they didn't define the other terms they're using, such as sugars, starches and dietary fiber. Maybe they define them further on.

Figure ES-1. 2015-2020 Dietary Guidelines for Americans at a Glance

I already commented on this in Message 222.

Chapter 1: Key Elements of Healthy Eating Patterns

Key Recommendations: Components of Healthy Eating Patterns

quote:
The recommendation to limit intake of calories from saturated fats to less than 10 percent per day is a target based on evidence that replacing saturated fats with unsaturated fats is associated with reduced risk of cardiovascular disease.

This is very bad advice. Replacing saturated fats with unsaturated fats, particularly polyunsaturated fats, is dangerous to health.

The Science Behind Healthy Eating Patterns

quote:
The components of healthy eating patterns recommended in this edition of the Dietary Guidelines were developed by integrating findings from systematic reviews of scientific research,...

Obviously they have ignored the more recent research. Perhaps they could argue that they're just being conservative, but they should at least give people a fighting chance by mentioning the more recent research.

A Closer Look Inside Healthy Eating Patterns: Table 1-1

quote:
Note: The total eating pattern should not exceed Dietary Guidelines limits for intake of calories from added sugars and saturated fats and alcohol and should be within the Acceptable Macronutrient Distribution Ranges for calories from protein, carbohydrate, and total fats.

I think this is the first mention of carbohydrates in the guidelines, and it hasn't yet been defined. There's a Gossary of Terms in Appendix 6, and carbohydrates is defined there.

Carbohydrates are a complicated subject given refined versus unrefined, sugars, whole grain, fiber and starch (a type of carbohydrate). It's understandable that they want to avoid detail that might be confusing, but they at least should include advice to reduce intake of carbohydrates that aren't high in fiber.


I've consumed my available time for today and have to sign off.

--Percy


    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(2)
Message 233 of 237 (787450)
07-14-2016 11:39 AM


Back to Carbless Eating
After a few years of eating too many carbs and gaining weight and claiming not to care (but really feeling hopeless about ever again having the motivation, the energy, the dedication, to do anything about it) I've finally got motivated enough to cut the carbs and have been seeing weight loss as expected. It took thinking a lot about how to change my eating patterns so I could tolerate the changes, and so far so good. I don't have a reliable scale but my clothes are starting to hang on me, not to mention my skin in some places, all a very good sign.

And there is no doubt it's due to giving up carbs. I'd gotten into the habit of eating sandwiches because they're easy, and I think that one habit was the greatest contributor to gaining weight, meaning the bread -- or really, the bread plus the mayo. For a long time I didn't think I could give that up because it had become such a habit. If I cut down on the size of the sandwich I'd get too hungry to tolerate it. The alternative involves more planning, preparation and cooking than I thought I could ever go back to, but for now I have the necessary motivation and it seems to be working so far.

Maybe the biggest change I'm in the process of making is adopting some of the "vegan" and "paleo" food recommendations that are so popular. I'll never become a vegan, and the Paleo Diet as a whole doesn't attract me, but practitioners of both systems are very creative about coming up with low-carb recipes that are even fun to try out. I resisted a lot of it for a long time and now find myself enjoying the experimentation involved, which wouldn't be so enjoyable if the results weren't good to eat. Getting into all that would make for a very long post, so all I want to say for now is that it looks like there are a lot more ways to cut carbs now than there ever were before. Of course you have to ignore the continuing dietary recommendations that Percy has been doing such a good job of reporting here.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17965
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 234 of 237 (843218)
11-14-2018 8:12 PM


Not All Calories Are Equal
Gary Taubes has been claiming for years that the evidence already tells us that if you want to lose weight, eat less carbs and more fat. The calories from carbs are bad for you (because carbohydrates are sugar - they're responsible for the diseases of western civilization, which is Taubes' main message - his diet advice is ancillary and he gives it little attention), and the calories from most fats are not (including saturated fat - the dangerous fats are manufactured rather than grown, like the fat in Crisco and margarine). Because fat does not provoke an insulin response, it is less likely to encourage formation of adipose tissue (fat cells).

Taubes views have not found a warm reception, but today's New York Times reports on a new study showing the positive effect on weight of a low carb diet: How a Low-Carb Diet Might Help You Maintain a Healthy Weight. For equivalent calorie intake, a low carb diet increases the metabolic rate and causes an average daily increase of 250 calories burned.

Unfortunately it is still true that a low carb diet is boring. Goodbye pasta, bread, crackers, chips, cake and candy. Hello vegetables, meat, many fruits, nuts and eggs.

Link to paper: Effects of a low carbohydrate diet on energy expenditure during weight loss maintenance: randomized trial

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Phat, posted 11-14-2018 8:43 PM Percy has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11563
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 235 of 237 (843220)
11-14-2018 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Percy
11-14-2018 8:12 PM


Two Doctors Speak Out
I watch a lot of videos from conferences and talks. Some presentations are, of course, sold as a commercial interest. Others are merely informative. Two of the best ones that I have come across recently, both of whom were Doctors and both of whom had statistical evidence behind their arguments, are these:

and


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Percy, posted 11-14-2018 8:12 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Percy, posted 11-15-2018 10:41 AM Phat has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17965
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 236 of 237 (843241)
11-15-2018 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Phat
11-14-2018 8:43 PM


Re: Two Doctors Speak Out
Do you track just your blood sugar, or also your ketone level?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Phat, posted 11-14-2018 8:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Phat, posted 11-15-2018 11:45 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11563
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 237 of 237 (843249)
11-15-2018 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Percy
11-15-2018 10:41 AM


Re: Two Doctors Speak Out
I track both. Once I get an idea of where my range is, I dont test as often. I don't have to worry about low blood sugars...only high ones. I stopped taking insulin, atorvastatin, and Trulicity. My blood sugars are right around 7 currently, after two months on the diet. I expect to achieve increased insulin sensitivity and a goal of under 6.0 A1C by January. One thing I have to watch on the ketogenic diet is eating too much fat. Its not because the fat is bad for me so much as it is that I dont burn any of my own.

My weight dropped from 232 on 9/13/18 to 217 on 11/13/18. My goal is 200 lb. The insurance charts allow my bodytype 188-205, so weightwise I should be ok.

I am convinced that these Low Carb advocate Doctors know what they are talking about for the most part. For those who are not diabetic, I would recommend increasing the carbs to 40 grams a day instead of the keto suggested 20 gram or less. Just make sure that the carbs are low glycemic...such as green vegetables and salads. If you sslip up during the holidays and have pie or something, dont sweat it but dont do it for multiple days in a row...get back on the plan after the feast is over.

Personally, I feel so bad when I eat sugars and high glycemic carbs that I dont slip up much anymore. My one carb weakness is having soda crackers, which I top with either cheese or salmon salad. They can add carbs at the rate of 10G for every 5 crackers.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Percy, posted 11-15-2018 10:41 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
RewPrev1
...
1112131415
16
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018