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Author | Topic: The Search for Moderate Islam | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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You say "La ilaha illallah, Muhammadun rasulullah " So if an atheist says that then they magically become a muslim?
Look - it'll help me understand what you are looking for with Islam if you find another religion and show me the moderate version. The Jews had all these weird and crazy laws about what you could do and where and when and how and it got really complicated and confusing. Then, Jesus comes along and says that all that stuff isn't necessary and all you have to do is love God and your neighbor. Pretty simple. Pretty moderate. I'd also say that Buddhism is fairly moderate. And despite your position that a religion doesn't teach anything, its not that hard to say: 'Christianity teaches to love your neighbor as yourself' and still make sense out of it. In the same way, we could say: 'Islam teaches blah blah blah' So, if someone where to claim that "Islam teaches moderation", what would they use to support that claim? Now, Christianity has things like YEC's... And just like not selling cakes to gays is not a tenet of Christianity, neither is YEC. Too, Islam has things like Muslims who want equality for women... but that is not a tenet of Islam. So, what are the tenets of Islam that yield moderation?
I mentally replaced 'does Islam' with 'do Muslims' to make the question coherent... That's the conflating that Jon was complaining about. Much like a Christian can say that they shouldn't sell a cake to a gay couple, despite the fact that it is not tenent of Christianity, a muslim could say that women should be equal, despite the fact that it is not a tenent of Islam.
Islam is a mental conception. But they do have tenets that are outlined in a book, no? Where in their tenets is the moderation?
What are you trying to say? Islam is not moderate, despite the fact that there are some muslims who are. Just like: Christianity is not YEC, despite the fact that there are some Christians who are YEC.
If what happened there confuses you, socio-cultural religious studies is probably not the subject you should be pontificating about. You can stop replying to me whenever you want.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Catholic writes: So, if someone where to claim that "Islam teaches moderation", what would they use to support that claim? They're pretty easy to find if you care to look (and their origins are quite obvious) Respect and honour all human beings irrespective of their religion, colour,race, sex, language, status, property, birth, profession/job and so on -- Error 404 - Not Found Take care of the needy, the disabled, those whose hard earned income isinsufficient to meet their needs, And those whose businesses have stalled, And those who have lost their jobs. -- Error 404 - Not Found Treat kindly Your related neighbours, and unrelated neighbours, Companionsby your side in public gatherings, or public transportation. I particularly like this one: If you do not have complete knowledge about anything, better keep your mouthshut. You might think that speaking about something without full knowledge is a trivial matter. But it might have grave consequences -- Error 404 - Not Found Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
So if an atheist says that then they magically become a muslim? Look it up, or, if you have a point you are driving towards, make it.
The Jews had all these weird and crazy laws about what you could do and where and when and how and it got really complicated and confusing. Then, Jesus comes along and says that all that stuff isn't necessary and all you have to do is love God and your neighbor. Pretty simple. Pretty moderate. According to Muslims, Jesus was a Muslim. Therefore, you just found yourself a moderate Muslim. Also, there have been....differences of opinion about what 'loving god' and 'loving neighbours' means, and that includes torture, rape, genocide, forced conversion etc. So in its own right, it's not moderate. It can be interpreted moderately. But Jesus didn't do away with the law, he just said that summed it up. Therefore to love God you should follow the Law. Which includes killing people for trivial crimes. So you know, not all that moderate.
And despite your position that a religion doesn't teach anything, its not that hard to say: 'Christianity teaches to love your neighbor as yourself' and still make sense out of it. Jesus, prophet of Islam, teaches the same thing.
quote: Moderate enough for you? It's apparently from Kitab al-Kafi but English translations of the Hadith are hard to find.
Now, Christianity has things like YEC's... And just like not selling cakes to gays is not a tenet of Christianity, neither is YEC. Creationism is explicitly a tenet of Christianity (and Islam), agreed?
Too, Islam has things like Muslims who want equality for women... but that is not a tenet of Islam. Equality for women is a pretty glaring omission from almost all of the early texts of the three big Abrahamic faiths. Product of their times and all that.
So, what are the tenets of Islam that yield moderation? Again, you need to help me a bit more here. Is this what you are looking for?
That's the conflating that Jon was complaining about. Moderate Islam is what moderate Muslims follow. If you want to find Moderate Islam, you shouldn't look to 8th Century texts. You might get somewhere with that, but 'moderate' wasn't really a thing in the 8th Century. In any event, I answered your question without making the conflation. If you think 'Islam' 'teaches' things, then moderate Islam teaches from mosques etc. So why are you complaining?
But they do have tenets that are outlined in a book, no? It's a bit more complex than that with Islam, I'm afraid. If you want to say 'The Qur'an is not moderate' then just say that. Neither is the book of Revelation.
Where in their tenets is the moderation? Let's suppose there are no written tenets which are remotely moderate. My position doesn't need them to be. Is it your position that this would mean Moderate Islam does not exist even as moderate Muslims practice a religion they call 'Islam' moderately?
Islam is not moderate, despite the fact that there are some muslims who are. So what religion are those Muslims following if it isn't a moderate form of Islam.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Thank you.
Allow me to catch up on some reading and then I'll get back to you. I do have some work I need to get done, though, so it probably won't be until tomorrow.
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Taq Member Posts: 9972 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
It seems that once an area reaches a certain percentage of Muslims, they begin to try changing everything they can to reflect their way of doing things. Google around, you'll find examples. That's true of any religious group, including christians. Try living in communities that are dominated by Mormons.
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Jon Inactive Member |
This one is funny:
quote: What is the active practice of Islam? Is that practice radical, extreme, moderate, liberal, secular? Is beheading apostates an active practice of Islam? Is beating insubordinate wives an active practice of Islam? Is stoning homosexuals an active practice of Islam? In as much as these things are actively practiced by Islamic governments and Islamic organizations, it would seem that these are indeed active practices of Islam. So is that what CAIR believes strengthens the social and religious fabric of our nation? It's really sad. Because there are verses of the Koran and other Islamic texts that have served as the basis for some of the most outrageous human rights violations of the last few decades. And there seems to be no widespread moderate interpretation of these verses to counter the interpretation used by those who commit those outrageous violations of human rights. Is there a moderate Islam that has something to say about these verses? If so, what does it say about these verses? Is there an alternate interpretation that is used? Is it a consistent and philosophically sound interpretation that can be used as the basis of a moderate Islamic faith? Or are the moderate interpretations only the random work of individual moderate Muslims? Like I said, it's sad. Because if there really is a moderate Islam practiced by a large number of moderate Muslims, then it is being outvoiced by the extreme Islam of groups such as ISIS and Islamic Middle Eastern governments.Love your enemies!
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Is there a moderate Islam that has something to say about these verses? If so, what does it say about these verses? Is there an alternate interpretation that is used? Well some of them are clearly specific to the time and place they were written/spoken regarding the ongoing conflicts with neighbours. So that's one line that is used. Stoning homosexuals? Well most Islamic countries don't do that anyway.Indonesia? No. Pakistan? No. Bangladesh? No Turkey? No. Just that list accounts for 600 million Muslims. Heck - homosexual sex was legal in Turkey before it was in the States or the UK (by many decades).
If so, what does it say about these verses? Is there an alternate interpretation that is used? Yes. There are many alternate interpretations. Islam is kind of characterised by its alternate interpretations and inferences, from fatwa to itjihad. Why not specify a verse and we'll find out together what different Muslims have made of it?
Is it a consistent and philosophically sound interpretation that can be used as the basis of a moderate Islamic faith Why would you expect that? It's a pile of horse manure just like when Christians do it. But I'd rather they did that than keep the pile of rotting raped babies that the extremists have.
Or are the moderate interpretations only the random work of individual moderate Muslims? That's how Islam operates. They don't have a Pope, or Queens. It's like American Protestantism - it's all over the place. The 'random work of individual Muslims' is usually called a fatwa: " most Muslims argue that anyone trained in Islamic law may give an opinion (fatwā) on its teachings", wikipedia, Fatwa. There is also ijtihad. It's complicated, I don't know it as well as Christianity, but that's what I see.
Because if there really is a moderate Islam practiced by a large number of moderate Muslims, then it is being outvoiced by the extreme Islam of groups such as ISIS and Islamic Middle Eastern governments. Which is funny because the Middle Eastern Muslims are in the minority (they only make up 20% of the global Muslim population) but they are the ones that get spoken about 90% of the time. Perhaps this says something about selection biases or something? Most Islamic problems come out of the Middle East, a highly unstable region because of the 20th Century shenanigans (collapse of the Ottomans, British interferences etc). The India/Pakistan thing is probably a thread in its own right! Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2106 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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It seems that once an area reaches a certain percentage of Muslims, they begin to try changing everything they can to reflect their way of doing things. Google around, you'll find examples. That's true of any religious group, including christians. Try living in communities that are dominated by Mormons. I find it hard to believe that you are comparing Muslims to Mormons. Maybe you better bring in all those Amish terrorists while you're at it. I don't know if you are excusing Muslims or condemning Mormons with your comment. But if you really think the two are equivalent, then there is no point in discussing this with you. Last I heard, Mormons don't send out patrols within their enclaves to enforce their desires with beatings, as is happening in many countries. I suspect that many Americans would not put up with it--and rightly so.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Coyote writes: It seems that once an area reaches a certain percentage of Muslims, they begin to try changing everything they can to reflect their way of doing things. Google around, you'll find examples.
Taq writes: That's true of any religious group, including christians. Try living in communities that are dominated by Mormons. Or try living in communities that are dominated by atheists. All it took was one loudmouthed atheist to remove prayer from the public schools, which had been in place for centuries; all it took was one plaintiff to make abortion the law of the land. No need to bother about majority rule any more, all it takes is the Supreme Court misapplying the Constitution to wipe out our formerly Christian rule of law. Case in point: There's very little that passes for entertainment that doesn't have sex scenes, including homosexual sex scenes, for which I have to avert my eyes. Even porn magazines were on display in some places after the Supreme Court made porn a matter of free speech until there was enough uproar to get them put out of sight. And so on and so forth. And yet you object to changes Christians or Mormons would bring about? Looks to me like you've got the kind of society a good atheist would prefer to live in, untrammeled by Christian mores, while now it's the Christian values which are nowhere in sight. In other words, it isn't only religions that impose their way of doing things on the rest of us. However, as Coyote points out, the comparison between Muslims and Mormons is ridiculous. The WAY Muslims impose their views on everybody else is by force. Mohammed spread Islam in the first place by murdering everybody who rejected it. They kept trying to invade Europe and succeeding to a great extent, up until the Protestant Reformation, their purpose being to establish their Islamic State throughout the world. They have a mandate to take the entire world for Allah and they don't just wait around for normal political processes to persuade people to their views, they behead you if you object. They do have to wait until they have that necessary population percentage, and once they have it they act to force the rest of the population to bow to Allah. They have that necessary population in some parts of Europe already, such as in Marseilles, where they torch cars and riot to get their way, making the city the most dangerous in Europe. I read somewhere, sorry I don't remember the source, that among the invaders of our borders are definitely illegal Muslims, evidence being prayer rugs found along the border. As long as useful idiots who have been deluded by political correctness keep making moral equivalences between violent and peaceful religions the violent ones will continue to grow and overrun the rest of us. Modulous made the crazy statement that Islam is not their Book, the Koran, but he's wrong. They do what they do because Mohammed wrote it down. Better start practicing your prayers to Allah. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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If the atheists don't getcha the Muslims will...poor old Protestants, permanently persecuted and so few of them left.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I find it hard to believe that you are comparing Muslims to Mormons. Why do people think that by comparing one common trait between groups, the person making the comparison is saying the groups are entirely the same? Is this rank stupidity or is it a rhetorical ploy to silence/shame people? Mormons try changing everything they can to reflect their way of doing things, as do Muslims, Protestants, Atheists and so on and so forth. This is not to say that Muslims, Protestants, Atheists and Mormons are the same thing, just that they share common behaviours (being the same animal and all that).
I don't know if you are excusing Muslims or condemning Mormons with your comment. I think it is just saying that this specific characteristic is NOT UNIQUE TO MUSLIMS.
But if you really think the two are equivalent, then there is no point in discussing this with you. If you really think that comparing one behavioural trait observed in one group with similar behavioural traits found in other groups is stating the two groups are equivalent then you aren't having a discussion because you don't understand English well enough to have one.
Last I heard, Mormons don't send out patrols within their enclaves to enforce their desires with beatings, as is happening in many countries. Was this intended to be funny?
I suspect that many Americans would not put up with it--and rightly so. Americans have been persecuting Mormons since they started in case you hadn't noticed, this has only somewhat eased after certain a politician ran for the Presidency.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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There are loonies in every bin. Indeed, that was my point.
Fortunately for Christians (and the Western world where they dominate) there is at least a moderate Christianity for the vast majority of Christians to believe in. And we know this because we live among them rather than because they advertise and proselytize ...
Is this true of Islam? Curiously, I think this is true for any "bin"
Is there a moderate Islam? Yes, I have known some.
If there is, what is it? Where is it? Sitting quietly at home practicing their religion rather than talking about it or making a public spectacle of their belief/s. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Or try living in communities that are dominated by atheists. All it took was one loudmouthed atheist to remove prayer from the public schools, which had been in place for centuries {and so on and so forth} I suggest you stop complaining that people who disagree with you are asking the courts to make decisions about it. It's better than the alternatives.
. The WAY Muslims impose their views on everybody else is by force. Not unique to Islam. See: Christianity.
Mohammed spread Islam in the first place by murdering everybody who rejected it. Like with Christianity.
They kept trying to invade Europe and succeeding to a great extent, Like with Christianity.
They do have to wait until they have that necessary population percentage, and once they have it they act to force the rest of the population to bow to Allah. They have that necessary population in some parts of Europe already, such as in Marseilles, where they torch cars and riot to get their way, making the city the most dangerous in Europe. Nice propaganda there, are you proud of it? Marseilles is struggling with a high immigrant population, low employment, huge drug issues and more. Most of the deaths are drug related. Since drug dealing is haram to Muslims, they can't be TRUE Muslims, by your own way of defining things, so this data point provides no insight. There are Christian immigrants to America that organize into gangs that get involved in the drug trade and murder people. I believe they are often referred to as 'Hispanic'. So if the no true Muslim defense is out - then the Christians still come off worse. Also - what is this 'certain percentage'? Right now it is about 35% in Marseille. If they haven't enforced Islam yet, very soon it's going to be when they are in the majority. Didn't you just get done with whining about 'majority rule'? Well if Muslims are the majority in Marseille, why shouldn't they rule? This is one of the things with majority rule - only the current majority wants it, and they start making references to constitutional protections when they are in the minority. I should point out that Marseilles' 'shocking' murder rate is basically the same as the USA over all and is considerably lower than say Los Angeles which has lots of Christian immigrants and a small fraction compared with New Orleans. In short: try again, this avenue doesn't work.
I read somewhere, sorry I don't remember the source, that among the invaders of our borders are definitely illegal Muslims, evidence being prayer rugs found along the border. Really - prayer rugs along the border? Do we know Catholics are coming over because of the rosary beads along the border? Look - obviously illegal Muslims are entering into America, but America's primary illegal immigration concern is regarding other Christians from south of the border. This is not some obscure fact.
Modulous made the crazy statement that Islam is not their Book, the Koran, but he's wrong. No I'm not.
They do what they do because Mohammed wrote it down. Mohammed couldn't write. But yes, like all religions, their Holy Books are very important. But they are not the religion.
Better start practicing your prayers to Allah. Have you never taken part in Salat? Maybe you are closed-minded?
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Or try living in communities that are dominated by atheists. All it took was one loudmouthed atheist to remove prayer from the public schools, which had been in place for centuries; all it took was one plaintiff to make abortion the law of the land. Faith, in the US it was actually Christians, lots of Christian, mainly Southern Baptists that spearheaded the movement to decriminalize abortion not just one plaintiff.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Jon Inactive Member |
Is it a consistent and philosophically sound interpretation that can be used as the basis of a moderate Islamic faith Why would you expect that? It's a pile of horse manure just like when Christians do it. I'm aware that it's all BS, but when I talk about consistent and philosophically sound, I mean something that can be readily grasped by folks new to the religion. Something that doesn't give easily to being changed (perhaps by having some perceived authority behind it), and that can be made sense of in light of the general principles of the religion as a whole. I really didn't want this to become a comparison thread between Islam and other faiths (especially Christianity, since there's plenty of room for improvement there as well), but it seems we already 'went there', so here is an example of such a thing from Christianity:
We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ,the only Son of God, begotten from the Father before all ages, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made; of the same essence as the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven; he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary, and was made human. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried. The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures. He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will never end. And we believe in the Holy Spirit,the Lord, the giver of life. He proceeds from the Father and the Son, and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified. He spoke through the prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church. We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and to life in the world to come. Amen. This statement is consistent and rests on the general principles of the religion. It is also rather bare-bones. It outlines some of the essential aspects of the faith, and that is all. More than anything, though, it is established. It is known. And it is authoritative. It transcends the individual believer. It is one of those things where, if everyone who calls themselves a Christian suddenly started claiming that Jesus was a cow who freed the world from sin by nurturing souls with magic manure, we could point to this passage and say "that's not what Christianity is!" At the same time, it is believable as a basic Christian belief statement on the grounds that it is accepted by all Christians (perhaps with only minor tweaking). In other words, if this statement said that Jesus was a cow who freed the world with manure, we could easily say that the statement has no bearing, and cannot speak for, modern Christianity. This is what I'm looking for regarding Islam. It should be something that describes the basic tenets of the faith. It should account for the basic beliefs. It should account for basic behavior. Not the scattered writings or belief statements of a few Muslims, but something that can be easily recognized as a statement of beliefs held in common across the Islamic world. I don't think this asks too much. I also don't think it's too confusing or unreasonable to ask for this as opposed to lists of moderate Muslims. I'm glad there's moderate Muslims, but I'm really looking for something that can be called 'moderate Islam'. JonLove your enemies!
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