The Search for Moderate Islam

http://www.samharris.org/...m/sleepwalking-toward-armageddon

Start at 2:30. The man speaking is Fahad Qureshi, founder of Islam Net.The following exchange is the real meat of the video. In large part, the who audience member who asks the question (at the beginning) does not participate in the survey except to identify himself as Muslim; the rest of the audience is involved, though:

Qureshi:  Every time we have a conferenceevery time we invite a speaker,
          they always can come with the same accusations: this speaker supports
          death penalty for homosexuals; this speaker supports death penalty
          for this crime or this crime or that; he is homophobic; they
          subjugate women; etc., etc., etc. It's the same old stuff coming all
          the time.  And we always try to tell themI always try to tell them.
          It's not that speaker that we're inviting who has these extreme,
          radical views as you say.  These are general views that every
          Muslim actually has; every Muslim believes in these things.
(@ 3:30)
Qureshi:  How many of you are normal Muslimsyou're not extremists; you're
          not radicaljust normal, Sunni Muslims?  Please, raise your hands.
Audience: [raises hands unanimously]
Qureshi:  ... How many of you agree that men and women should sit separate?
          Please, raise your hands.
Audience: [raises hands unanimously]
Qureshi:  ... Next question: How many of you agree that the punishments
          described in the Koran and the Sunnahwhether it is death,
          whether it is stoning for adultery, whatever it isif it is from
          Allah and his messenger, that is the best punishment ever possible
          for humankind and that is what we should apply in the world?
          Who agrees with that?
Audience: [raises hands unanimously]
Qureshi:  Are you all radical extremists?
Audience: [sporadic hands raise with humorous intent]
Qureshi:  So, all of you are saying that you are common Muslims. ... Please,
          raise your hand if you're like this extreme Islamic sect or anything
          like that?
Audience: [hands down unanimously]
Qureshi:  How many of you ... go to the normal Sunni mosques?  Please, raise
          your hands.
Audience: [raises hands unanimously]
Qureshi:  So, what's the politicians going to say now?  What is the media going
          to say now? That we are all extremists, that we're all radicals, we
          need to deport all of us from this country?

I find it telling how the speaker and audience understand 'extremism' and 'radicalism'. They do not judge things as 'extreme' or 'radical' on the basis of their distance from mainstream, secular morality; instead, they judge things as 'extreme' or 'radical' on the basis of their distance from mainstream Islamic thought. By this logic (and this is the argument the speaker is making) Muslims who support stoning for adultery, for example, are not 'extreme' or 'radical'they are 'normal' Muslims!The organization Qureshi heads isn't in Saudi Arabia or Iran; it's in Norway!We cannot simply consider a Muslim moderate just because they say they are (the same holds true for anyone, of course, Christian, atheist, etc.). We must examine the beliefs held. We must look at the holy books and what they say and how they are interpreted.And when we do?Well... I think the vote says it all.Edited by Jon, : Ctrl+Hnot your friend!Edited by Jon, : ClarityEdited by Jon, : ClarityEdited by Jon, : No reason given.

And if you follow his links to other articles on Islam, you will find a wealth of non-religiously-motivated information about the 'religion of peace'.He discusses the video I posted in one of his articles: Islam or Islamophobia?He also has some information on Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who I was going to make a long post about, but decided against since there is simply so much information out there and all of it easy to find and well worth reading/watching.You can watch the video she was involved in making by googling and following the YouTube link. It is called Submissionthe meaning of the word 'islam'. It's director, Theo van Gogh, was assassinated, left dead in the street with a note stabbed into him threatening Hirsi Ali for, well, speaking her mind.Anyway; it's all really easy to find. I hope other participants here will check it out!

Well what do you know, ask a bunch of Muslims if they think Allah is right and they'll say "yes". We learned a lot here.Maybe next time we could make sure that the Muslims are all in front their peers or superiors, are in a well lit room and are being filmed. That's a surefire why getting to what they really believe. Jon, have you worked at Fox before? Except that stoning for adultery is not in the Qur'an and is therefore not actually covered by the question asked meaning you can't make this conclusion.I can tell you've researched the topic.Is this the 'Muslim community meeting' you've watched?You aren't remotely interested in learning about moderate Islam, are you?

It is directly covered by the question. Anyone who watches the video or reads the transcription I provided in Message 92 will hear/read it for themselves.

So you admit that it is a hopelessly loaded question which includes hypotheticals which are known to be false? Good. Now we have no idea to which part of the question people are agreeing with. Are they agreeing that stoning should be the penalty for adultery (and presumably other zina)? Are they doing so because an authority told them it was in the Qur'an? Are they confusing some Hadith with the Qur'an? Are they answering the broad question of 'if Allah says it is it is good'? Who the hell knows? Useless.Do you admit that the setting is inappropriate to garner realistic answers?If so, I think we're done with that video as 'evidence' of anything.

Well, you'll notice the speaker doesn't restrict his question to the Koran (or even just Allah). But if you want to ignore most of what he has asked his audience and only focus on: ... then I suppose we can do that.Should we focus on whipping adulterers, dismembering thieves, imprisoning overtly-sexual women, or...?These are punishments from the Koran, from Allah. It is not ideal. But it is a better setting than a research poll conducted by white Westerners. Well I didn't. So it's still here.

I did notice it was a loaded and compound question. You keep making the argument for this more explicit. Are they answering for 'both Koran and Sunnah' or 'Koran or Sunnah' - 'Allah and Mohammed' or 'Allah or Mohammed'?Is it your view that 100% of Muslims accept the Sunnah that call for stoning for zina? The people that claim to be Muslims that disagree are lying or NOT TRUE Muslims? Are you able to actually construct an argument or are you just trying to paint billions of people in one stroke? That would have been a much smarter place for you to start, yes. What would you like to say about it? How did you reach this conclusion, is it based on anything, or are you just pulling this 'fact' out of your ass? Can you identify the race of the pollers in some of the significant ones?Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

You're shifting the focus of the discussion.We are all aware of the large number of extreme and radical Muslims and we are familiar with the extreme and radical religion (which they apparently consider just ordinary Islam) that they practice.I don't think I need to explain why the punishments I've mentioned are not at all moderate. No one needs me to convince them that the attitudes revealed in the short video are concerning to anyone who believes in honoring basic human rights.I'm not going to go into what is wrong with whipping adulterers, or stoning them, or whatever else. To a moral person, the problems with these punishments and the beliefs on which they are based are plainly apparent and require no explanation.This thread was started so that evidence for moderate Islam could be presented. So far, no one has even defined what moderate Islam is let alone shown evidence that it exists.Some small-time anecdotes about friends and a handful of Koran verses promoting peace stand against the statements, beliefs, and behaviors of the Islamic powers of the worldthe oppressive Middle Eastern countries where human rights are disgustingly violated daily in the name of Allah and Muhammad.When looking for evidence of moderate Islam, we cannot ignore the forest for the trees.We need to be talking about the forest, not just the trees.Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

I know, which is why I'm not talking about them. I'm perplexed as to why you keep shifting the focus back to it. Yes, you do. You are the one making an argument, so you need to actually make it, rather than relying on innuendo. Is it more extreme to get 100 lashes for adultery or lose most of your liberties for 3 years for selling weed while being black, for example? I don't know you perspective on this, because you won't commit to an argument. I can see your mind is already made up, you don't have to reassure me of your prejudices. I'm not asking you to, we both know, this isn't a thread about what moral problems white westerners have with Islamic law. Yes, and it seems to have turned into 'let's use confirmation bias to prove law abiding citizens are the same as terrorists'. Pretty disgusting, but the Americans are gearing up for another righteous Crusade, so I suppose this makes the impending clusterfuck of death more palatable. Has 'weapons of mass destruction' no more persuasive power? You are the one looking - stop complaining that YOU don't have a clue what you are looking for and that you can't find it. Translation: When looking for moderate Islam, we should ignore moderate Islam at all possible costs.Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Of course. I'm prejudice. I should not question the basic decency of anything labeled a 'religion'. My views on Islam are just after-the-fact justifications for my feelings of American superiority and western imperialism. If bunny rabbits were sitting on my oil, I'd hate them. If you can't set aside your own prejudicesthat anyone who questions the basic decency of a 'religion' is an ill-informed bigotthen I don't see how a discussion about any religion can move forward.If something is bad it's bad. We both have to be comfortable coming to that conclusion. If we aren't, then we cannot have an honest discussion. We must also both be comfortable coming to the opposite conclusion, but I see no problems with that in this case. (You should already know from my other posts here that I have more sympathies for religious belief than most.) We're not talking about black people selling weed. That you think such a statement could even be relevant is evidence of your inability to discuss the issue without coloring me as a stupid, stuck-up American.Again. Let's stop assuming that I'm here to do some Muslim bashing and have a sincere discussion. In as much as moral white westerners believe in equal treatment of women, acceptance of homosexuality, the freedom to choose a religion or no religion, etc. then that is exactly what this thread is about.We are looking for a moderate Islam. Is there a moderate Islam? Is there an Islamic law that recognizes equal treatment of women, acceptance of homosexuality, freedom to choose a religion or no religion, etc.?That is the issue at the center of this discussion!

I don't understand why you posted a quote about the dangers of radical Islam when we're talking about moderate Islam. Obviously we should criticize Islam. This is not the thread for criticizing Islam. This is about the ontology of moderate Islam. You keep trying to find examples that confirm your belief that there is none, which was my criticism. I hold no such prejudice, as obviously I do this all the time myself - or has your boiling blood affected your memory of people in your own community as well? Neither am I, using an example for a place to construct an argument that uses difficult cases from your own culture would be challenging, but insightful. That is, if you were interested in making some kind of argument that is. Great, where was I? ah yes: Yes, you do. You are the one making an argument, so you need to actually make it, rather than relying on innuendo. Is it more extreme to get life for three strikes, or whipped for adultery, for example? To answer this kind of question, you need to identify what makes a punishment 'extreme' and what makes one 'moderate' and explain why this distinction is useful for us and...I mean really, do I really need to teach you how to construct an argument? Yes. To an extent. I mean obviously the whole world has been struggling with all of that for the past 150 years or so, but if you mean 'in general', then, yes.Turkey is 97% Islamic and they have all those things. A separation of powers? Then its not Islamic law, I hear you cry. But that's the best way for moderation to blossom, especially with the barbaric Abrahamic religions. Have you spent any time examining the work of the moderators I have referenced?Sayyid Al-Qemany? Nasr Abu Zayd? Khalil Abdel-Karim? Abdolkarim Soroush? Muhammad Shahrur? Ahmed Subhy Mansour? Edip Yksel? Gamal al-Banna? Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na'im? Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri? Ahmed Al-Gubbanchi? Mahmoud Mohammed Taha?Have you examined the work of any of the groups?Muslim Alliance for Sexual and Gender Diversity? Muslims for Progressive Values? Quranism?Because you haven't commented on the actual moderate Islam these people are trying to create and I wondered why.Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

I'm trying to point out why I started this thread: the extreme and radical Islam that dominates the media, the Internet, discussions by atheists (Sam Harris, Bill Maher, Richard Dawkins, etc.). As I said in the OP, we don't have to look very hard to find crazy Islam. Non-crazy Islam, on the other hand, is less obvious.On the face of it, then, Islam appears crazy (it's certainly the argument made in this debate: Islam is a Religion of Peace). So I'm genuinely curious to know if there is an actual moderate Islam out there. Well; for what it is worth I think putting people in prison for drugs is stupid. Whipping people is also stupid. I can't really compare them. They should both be gotten rid of. I condone neither practice.Obviously, distinguishing between 'moderate' and 'extreme' is not useful in and of itself. But it is the purpose of this thread to find a 'moderate' Islam. If you think the distinction between 'moderate' Islam and 'extreme' Islam is not useful, that is fine, but if you are going to use this opinion to avoid providing examples of 'moderate' Islam, then you're really in the wrong place. I will review these people/groups and try to see if I can discern some common thread of moderate Islam that unites them.I'll let you know what I find.Jon

Yes, it's a given. We all see it on our media, as you say. That's right. Non-crazy Islam is persecuted by crazy Islam, and it is often intellectual, philosophical, theological, academic, boring or difficult for western ears so it doesn't get as much play. Also, it often occurs in a different language and doesn't get translated because there is no money in doing so. My point is that what constitutes a moral/right/correct method of punishment is an intrinsically difficult that we still haven't solved. Therefore, going after Islam on how its communities have handled these issues seems a bit, I don't know, vindictive? mean-spirited? Hypocritical? Maybe it's not such an excellent place to start discovering moderate Islam? I gave you this link on the 15th Sep, which summarises things for you. In short it's almost the same stuff that moderate Christians do.'Written in a time in a context, aimed at the people of that time, is meant to be continuously re-examined in light of larger social changes'with some of their own twists like 'There are two versions in the Qur'an, and the crazies use the crazy version because of some crazy out of context interpretation. They should use the non-crazy version because it was written near Mecca' or something.They probably don't all agree with one another 100%. Some reject the Hadith by for example citing something that Muhammed said (not quoted by an obscure or contested chronicler, so it's pretty solid) that was ironically written down:

quote:

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"Do not write anything from me except the Qur'an. Whoever wrote, must destroy it."

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While others keep them, but downplay their significance or what have you.

Islam is far more in need of an Enlightenment than a Reformation.But when the crazies kill anyone who isn't crazy enough, the moderates will tend to either keep very quiet or play along.