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Author | Topic: Multiculturalism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dogmafood Member (Idle past 348 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined:
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and Coyote seems to think that un-named factions are deliberately trying to weaken the Union so that we cannot return to the Moon.
PT writes: Give me some examples of people fighting for a brand of multiculturalism that would allow such a thing. If your culture requires that you stone your daughter if she should dishonour you by being raped then you have to leave that when you flee from the shit hole that your culture has produced. In 2004 the attorney general of Ontario proposed that we allow for the settling of disputes using Sharia law.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 348 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
Is that a way of saying "Actually, that's more than one culture"? No.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
As the numbers of such immigrants increase, their power to undo advancements in the recognition of human rights through voting and/or lobbying also increases. Utilizing our western civics system (lobbying, voting) to peaceably demand changes? Sounds like the process of assimilation is beginning.
Our societies need to address this. Multiculturalism may have benefits, but it has side effects too. Absolutely and undoubtedly. I was only pointing out that so to does monoculturalism. I suggest we try and navigate a path through both, but I haven't spent a lot of time reading cultural studies material which is why I was hoping for specifics. And if there is a 'winner' in cultural evolution, right now our shared culture would be it. We've imported it almost everywhere, and even areas that reject parts or even large parts of it, are still almost forced to accept some of it, or tempted into accepting it thinking it will be an improvement - to the detriment of many small rural communities it has been argued..
This is the topic of a blog post I linked to earlier: Is Canada Importing Patriarchy? Ever heard of Betteridge's law? The blog doesn't answer the question unfortunately. It says many immigrants come from heavily patriarchal societies, and gives evidence. Then it says a book, than Putnam endorses, claims that rapid immigration leads to enclaves that preserve things such as those patriarchal values. It sounds plausible, but the blog doesn't discuss the evidence and laments that nobody has formally asked these communities.
Of course. But I have told you of my experiences in schools. I think you mentioned a type of welfare that necessitated enrolment in an English class. I don't know the details of the welfare in question, but the general principle sounds good. I wonder if Spanish would be an acceptable alternative in some communities?
There is so much variety in the U.S. public school system that it would simply be dishonest of me to talk about what other schools are doing without having experienced it or researching it in detail. And it is not usually possible to do the research. How can I find out what discipline standards a school uses in a different district? I could look it up on their website; maybe it's posted, but it likely isn't. And that would have to be done for every school. Can I figure out which concessions other schools make for cultural differences? Again, the process would be quite difficult. And that is sort of what you get with a public school system that has little cohesion and few clearly-defined standards. I understand the situation. However, you raised the following point:
quote: I presumed there had been something in the media or blogosphere or something that you had noticed this happening and was wondering if you had some examples of this? I presumed you had something other than the 'War on Christmas', perhaps to do with Thanksgiving or some other uniquely American, entirely secular celebration such as July 4th being 'hidden' and/or 'suppress[ed]'. Is this not the case? Is it truly impossible? Should we look to other examples of multicultural policies that are problematic if it would be dishonest of you to talk about what other schools are doing without due dilligence?
Okay. If that's what you meant with 'teaching fundamental western ethical philosophies', then I can see potential for it. These approaches, though, are largely on an individual basis when it comes to raising children. If they don't work, then there is actual discipline involved. A parent might apply discipline unequally, but in a school there is usually a standard set of procedures for handling unacceptable behavior. Note that what is considered acceptable is determined by cultural norms. OK. So this is what we have now, isn't it? You just want to include some kind of civics or citizenship studies in there. OK so let's have a look at Social Studies. Again, I'm not in the know on this subject but
http://schools.utah.gov:
quote: The Center for Civic Education says the National Standards for Civics and Government involve answering these key questions, and other associated ones:
quote: The National Council for the Social Studies:
quote: National Curriculum Standards for Social Studies: Chapter 2The Themes of Social Studies - is this too far? Is this what you want more of?
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
In 2004 the attorney general of Ontario proposed that we allow for the settling of disputes using Sharia law. Sharia law does not necessitate honour killings any more than western law necessitates the death penalty for murder.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Sharia law does not necessitate honour killings any more than western law necessitates the death penalty for murder. Sharia law is entirely foreign to Western civilization, and has no improvements to offer. For what reason would we adopt it? Other than some folks, recently arrived, grew up with it? Perhaps they need to adapt, not try to force their ways upon the dominant culture that has welcomed them? It's a thought.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
For what reason would we adopt it? That isn't the issue at hand.
Perhaps they need to adapt, not try to force their ways upon the dominant culture that has welcomed them? It's a thought. But 'they' aren't forcing their ways upon the dominant culture in the situation under discussion. They're asking to sort mostly domestic and marital problems out using their own arbitrators.
Here it is quote: You know, because they are free and consenting adults and all that.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Utilizing our western civics system (lobbying, voting) to peaceably demand changes? Sounds like the process of assimilation is beginning. Is it the kind of change we want, though?
Absolutely and undoubtedly. I was only pointing out that so to does monoculturalism. I suggest we try and navigate a path through both, but I haven't spent a lot of time reading cultural studies material which is why I was hoping for specifics. And if there is a 'winner' in cultural evolution, right now our shared culture would be it. We've imported it almost everywhere, and even areas that reject parts or even large parts of it, are still almost forced to accept some of it, or tempted into accepting it thinking it will be an improvement - to the detriment of many small rural communities it has been argued.. Everything has problems. I haven't argued for strict Monoculturalism because I know it has its downsides. I agree that we need a middle ground. At the very least, though, I think we need to stop actively working against the natural tendency of assimilation.
quote: Recognizing individual rights is a no-brainer. But Multiculturalism is more than just the recognition of individual rights; it's the recognition of cultural rights; the belief that a culture has a right to exist and should thus be kept from disappearing. There is more in-depth breakdown on the different forms of Multiculturalism beginning on page 249 (3). I think hardcore Multiculturalism does more to take away liberties than it does to preserve them.
Ever heard of Betteridge's law? Nope. But here's something else I posted in a message to someone else:
quote: I presumed there had been something in the media or blogosphere or something that you had noticed this happening and was wondering if you had some examples of this? I presumed you had something other than the 'War on Christmas', perhaps to do with Thanksgiving or some other uniquely American, entirely secular celebration such as July 4th being 'hidden' and/or 'suppress[ed]'. Halloween. The district I worked in had an official policy against it and did not permit costumes. I don't think it would be right to post the internal policy verbatim, but the stated reason for the policy was to be 'inclusive' of people from other cultures, which of course makes no sense and really boiled down to removing the holiday to avoid having certain minority children feel left out (since they did not celebrate Halloween out of religious or cultural belief). Of course kids talk, and the minority children still felt like crap for not getting to dress up like monsters and get free candy; the majority children felt like crap for not getting to do it in school. Lose-lose. But it wasn't developed for winning; it was just developed to be 'Multicultural'.
OK. So this is what we have now, isn't it? You just want to include some kind of civics or citizenship studies in there. OK so let's have a look at Social Studies. Individual courses are great, but I think more could be done. I can't say much for middle and high school (where social studies are primarily taught); I've only worked in the lower grades and with adults. At the adult level I've observed a disruptive allowance for cultural differences. Two examples come to mind; one is prayer time. The other is respect for classroom policies and learning norms. Should we be stopping classes to allow prayer breaks? That's how it goes now. The students who don't need to pray X number of times during class? They get that much less instruction. Is respecting one culture worth disrespecting another? It was also typical for many of our students to have group discussions while the teacher was delivering her lesson, sometimes for a few minutes at a time. You can't really enforce basic decency rules with adults, you just have to tell them what they are and hope they follow them. What does this mean for the students who actually want to listen to the teacher and learn? They find her instruction crowded out by the obnoxious chattering of their classmates. Is respecting one culture worth disrespecting another? Anyway, you sent me a link to an article. But it's past midnight in Minnesota, so I will read it tomorrow and update. Jon
ABE: Read the article now. I'm not sure what relevance it has to the discussion. Cultural contact can be detrimental for many reasons, but the loss of a particular culture or some of its practices does not seem to be one of those reasons. Diversity for diversity's sake is, to me, outside of reason. The economic arguments are much better than the arguments decrying lost diversity. And a lot of the problems indicated seem more the result of greedy business interests than the natural development of cultural contact. It seems more relevant to the issue of 'globalization as economics' than 'globalization as culture'. Edited by Jon, : No reason given.Love your enemies!
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
In 2004 the attorney general of Ontario proposed that we allow for the settling of disputes using Sharia law.
Is this like allowing an arbitration settlement if all parties agree to the arbitrator?Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 284 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
No. And yet actually, that's more than one culture. So "Actually, that's more than one culture" would have been quite a sensible answer.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 348 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined:
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Is this like allowing an arbitration settlement if all parties agree to the arbitrator? Yeah it is kind of like that if one of the parties is tied up in the corner and agrees under threat of dismemberment. Here is a bit of a list of what Sharia law includes.
quote: Source
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 348 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined:
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And yet actually, that's more than one culture. So "Actually, that's more than one culture" would have been quite a sensible answer. Now that you have finished answering your own question I am glad to see that you agree with yourself. Little Italy and China town are the contributions that the previous cultures have made to their new culture. They are examples of how a melting pot does not require the destruction of preexisting cultural practices as long as they do not breach the laws of their new country. These are examples of cultural practices not only surviving but flourishing under a set of laws that apply to everyone and without the mollycoddling of multiculturalism.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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ProtoTypical writes: Little Italy and China town are the contributions that the previous cultures have made to their new culture. They are examples of how a melting pot does not require the destruction of preexisting cultural practices as long as they do not breach the laws of their new country. These are examples of cultural practices not only surviving but flourishing under a set of laws that apply to everyone and without the mollycoddling of multiculturalism. They're not examples of melting pots, they're the exact opposite - enclaves of single races living peaceably within a host country is actually an example of multiculturalism. The melting pot idea is where all races interbreed and live homogeneously. There's nothing about multiculturalism that requires mollycoddling - immigrants need to live by the laws of the country they settle in. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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Yeah it is kind of like that if one of the parties is tied up in the corner and agrees under threat of dismemberment. Here is a bit of a list of what Sharia law includes. a) There is no 'Sharia' as a single entity like there is no single 'Christian morality'. For instance 'A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death.' is based on a very questionable Hadith that plenty of Islamic scholars simply rejectb) Try getting your knowledge of Islam from somewhere that isn't a rival religious group c) The Attorney general was only talking about the settling of civil disputes, so much of your list is obviously not applicable d) Sharia only would be allowed as dispute resolution as long as the resolution is within Ontario law. Thus murder, dismemberment and child abuse are automatically excluded anyway. So...try again.
Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam. Did you even look Taqiyya up?
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Here is a bit of a list of what Sharia law includes. The police are not going to avoid prosecuting criminal matter stuff. Nobody is by policy allowing people to handle their own rape cases. So citing Sharia law provisions for those things is ridiculous. And if punishments are criminal, then those are going to run afoul of the law as well. Nobody in this country at least has a policy of making people exempt from criminal law. On the other hand, some religions here do practice shunning and other religious punishments for goofy reasons. And it is all tolerated. Arbitration would be used only for civil disputes. Kinda like how if you have a dispute with your cable company you don't get to go to court and sue because you've agreed to arbitration. You've also the rules for who wins and looses and the limits on possible remedies when you signed your contract. Time Warner however cannot cut off your hand regardless of how much cable you steal.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 348 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined:
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They're not examples of melting pots, they're the exact opposite - enclaves of single races living peaceably within a host country is actually an example of multiculturalism. The melting pot idea is where all races interbreed and live homogeneously. Well I would much rather be interbreeding than inbreeding. They are an example that directly contradicts the notion that the melting pot is somehow oppressive. They are an example of how many cultures can thrive under one infrastructure.
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