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Author Topic:   Multiculturalism
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 136 of 1234 (737843)
09-30-2014 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by NoNukes
09-30-2014 8:57 AM


Re: Evidence for Multiculturalism's Efficacy
and Coyote seems to think that un-named factions are deliberately trying to weaken the Union so that we cannot return to the Moon.
PT writes:
If your culture requires that you stone your daughter if she should dishonour you by being raped then you have to leave that when you flee from the shit hole that your culture has produced.
Give me some examples of people fighting for a brand of multiculturalism that would allow such a thing.
In 2004 the attorney general of Ontario proposed that we allow for the settling of disputes using Sharia law.

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 Message 101 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2014 8:57 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 137 of 1234 (737844)
09-30-2014 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Dr Adequate
09-30-2014 10:46 AM


Re: Evidence for Multiculturalism's Efficacy
Is that a way of saying "Actually, that's more than one culture"?
No.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-30-2014 10:46 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-01-2014 2:51 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 138 of 1234 (737845)
09-30-2014 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Jon
09-30-2014 10:07 PM


schools out, patriarch in
As the numbers of such immigrants increase, their power to undo advancements in the recognition of human rights through voting and/or lobbying also increases.
Utilizing our western civics system (lobbying, voting) to peaceably demand changes? Sounds like the process of assimilation is beginning.
Our societies need to address this. Multiculturalism may have benefits, but it has side effects too.
Absolutely and undoubtedly. I was only pointing out that so to does monoculturalism. I suggest we try and navigate a path through both, but I haven't spent a lot of time reading cultural studies material which is why I was hoping for specifics.
And if there is a 'winner' in cultural evolution, right now our shared culture would be it. We've imported it almost everywhere, and even areas that reject parts or even large parts of it, are still almost forced to accept some of it, or tempted into accepting it thinking it will be an improvement - to the detriment of many small rural communities it has been argued..
This is the topic of a blog post I linked to earlier: Is Canada Importing Patriarchy?
Ever heard of Betteridge's law?
The blog doesn't answer the question unfortunately. It says many immigrants come from heavily patriarchal societies, and gives evidence. Then it says a book, than Putnam endorses, claims that rapid immigration leads to enclaves that preserve things such as those patriarchal values. It sounds plausible, but the blog doesn't discuss the evidence and laments that nobody has formally asked these communities.
Of course. But I have told you of my experiences in schools.
I think you mentioned a type of welfare that necessitated enrolment in an English class. I don't know the details of the welfare in question, but the general principle sounds good. I wonder if Spanish would be an acceptable alternative in some communities?
There is so much variety in the U.S. public school system that it would simply be dishonest of me to talk about what other schools are doing without having experienced it or researching it in detail. And it is not usually possible to do the research. How can I find out what discipline standards a school uses in a different district? I could look it up on their website; maybe it's posted, but it likely isn't. And that would have to be done for every school.
Can I figure out which concessions other schools make for cultural differences? Again, the process would be quite difficult.
And that is sort of what you get with a public school system that has little cohesion and few clearly-defined standards.
I understand the situation. However, you raised the following point:
quote:
It has become very popular to remove holiday celebration from schools;
I presumed there had been something in the media or blogosphere or something that you had noticed this happening and was wondering if you had some examples of this? I presumed you had something other than the 'War on Christmas', perhaps to do with Thanksgiving or some other uniquely American, entirely secular celebration such as July 4th being 'hidden' and/or 'suppress[ed]'.
Is this not the case? Is it truly impossible? Should we look to other examples of multicultural policies that are problematic if it would be dishonest of you to talk about what other schools are doing without due dilligence?
Okay. If that's what you meant with 'teaching fundamental western ethical philosophies', then I can see potential for it. These approaches, though, are largely on an individual basis when it comes to raising children. If they don't work, then there is actual discipline involved. A parent might apply discipline unequally, but in a school there is usually a standard set of procedures for handling unacceptable behavior.
Note that what is considered acceptable is determined by cultural norms.
OK. So this is what we have now, isn't it? You just want to include some kind of civics or citizenship studies in there. OK so let's have a look at Social Studies. Again, I'm not in the know on this subject but
http://schools.utah.gov:
quote:
The goal of this course is to foster informed, responsible participation in public life. Knowing how to be a good citizen is essential to the preservation and improvement of United States democracy. Upon completion of this course the student will understand the major ideas, protections, privileges, structures, and economic systems that affect the life of a citizen in the United States political system. This course is recommended for seniors due to their proximity to voting age.
The Center for Civic Education says the National Standards for Civics and Government involve answering these key questions, and other associated ones:
quote:
What are Civic Life, Politics, and Government?
What are the Foundations of the American Political System?
How Does the Government Established by the Constitution Embody the Purposes, Values, and Principles of American Democracy?
What is the Relationship of the United States to Other Nations and to World Affairs?
What are the Roles of the Citizen in American Democracy?
The National Council for the Social Studies:
quote:
Human beings create, learn, share, and adapt to culture. The study of culture examines the socially transmitted beliefs, values, institutions, behaviors, traditions and way of life of a group of people; it also encompasses other cultural attributes and products, such as language, literature, music, arts and artifacts, and foods. Students come to understand that human cultures exhibit both similarities and differences, and they learn to see themselves both as individuals and as members of a particular culture that shares similarities with other cultural groups, but is also distinctive. In a multicultural, democratic society and globally connected world, students need to understand the multiple perspectives that derive from different cultural vantage points.
Cultures are dynamic and change over time. The study of culture prepares students to ask and answer questions such as: What is culture? What roles does culture play in human and societal development? What are the common characteristics across cultures? How is unity developed within and among cultures? What is the role of diversity and how is it maintained within a culture? How do various aspects of culture such as belief systems, religious faith, or political ideals, influence other parts of a culture such as its institutions or literature, music, and art? How does culture change over time to accommodate different ideas, and beliefs? How does cultural diffusion occur within and across communities, regions, and nations?
....
They learn to analyze specific aspects of culture, such as language and beliefs, and the influence of culture on human behavior. As students progress through high school, they can understand and use complex cultural concepts such as adaptation, assimilation, acculturation, diffusion, and dissonance that are drawn from anthropology, sociology, and other disciplines to explain how culture and cultural systems function.
National Curriculum Standards for Social Studies: Chapter 2The Themes of Social Studies - is this too far? Is this what you want more of?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Jon, posted 09-30-2014 10:07 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Jon, posted 10-01-2014 1:27 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 139 of 1234 (737846)
09-30-2014 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Dogmafood
09-30-2014 10:53 PM


Re: Evidence for Multiculturalism's Efficacy
In 2004 the attorney general of Ontario proposed that we allow for the settling of disputes using Sharia law.
Sharia law does not necessitate honour killings any more than western law necessitates the death penalty for murder.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 140 of 1234 (737847)
10-01-2014 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Modulous
09-30-2014 11:56 PM


Re: Evidence for Multiculturalism's Efficacy
Sharia law does not necessitate honour killings any more than western law necessitates the death penalty for murder.
Sharia law is entirely foreign to Western civilization, and has no improvements to offer.
For what reason would we adopt it? Other than some folks, recently arrived, grew up with it?
Perhaps they need to adapt, not try to force their ways upon the dominant culture that has welcomed them? It's a thought.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Modulous, posted 09-30-2014 11:56 PM Modulous has replied

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 141 of 1234 (737848)
10-01-2014 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Coyote
10-01-2014 12:02 AM


sharia
For what reason would we adopt it?
That isn't the issue at hand.
Perhaps they need to adapt, not try to force their ways upon the dominant culture that has welcomed them? It's a thought.
But 'they' aren't forcing their ways upon the dominant culture in the situation under discussion. They're asking to sort mostly domestic and marital problems out using their own arbitrators.
Here it is
quote:
Arbitration should continue to be an alternative dispute resolution option
that is available in family and inheritance law cases, subject to the further recommendations of this Review
The Arbitration Act should continue to allow disputes to be arbitrated using religious law, if the safeguards currently prescribed and recommended by this Review are observed.
You know, because they are free and consenting adults and all that.

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 1234 (737851)
10-01-2014 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Modulous
09-30-2014 11:53 PM


Re: schools out, patriarch in
Utilizing our western civics system (lobbying, voting) to peaceably demand changes? Sounds like the process of assimilation is beginning.
Is it the kind of change we want, though?
Absolutely and undoubtedly. I was only pointing out that so to does monoculturalism. I suggest we try and navigate a path through both, but I haven't spent a lot of time reading cultural studies material which is why I was hoping for specifics.
And if there is a 'winner' in cultural evolution, right now our shared culture would be it. We've imported it almost everywhere, and even areas that reject parts or even large parts of it, are still almost forced to accept some of it, or tempted into accepting it thinking it will be an improvement - to the detriment of many small rural communities it has been argued..
Everything has problems. I haven't argued for strict Monoculturalism because I know it has its downsides. I agree that we need a middle ground. At the very least, though, I think we need to stop actively working against the natural tendency of assimilation.
quote:
Multiculturalism in American Public Opinion (PDF):
Proponents of multiculturalism hold that membership in a 'societal culture' with its own language and history is necessary for the individual's dignity and self-realization. They are convinced that 'the universal, individual rights promised by liberalism are insufficient protection for the survival of minority cultures' and for the ability of their members 'to decide what kind of life is good for them'. Minority cultures need special recognition and group rights to withstand the forces of assimilation that undermine the sense of identity and well-being that individuals derive from membership in prosperous and respected communities. (p. 247 [1])
Recognizing individual rights is a no-brainer. But Multiculturalism is more than just the recognition of individual rights; it's the recognition of cultural rights; the belief that a culture has a right to exist and should thus be kept from disappearing. There is more in-depth breakdown on the different forms of Multiculturalism beginning on page 249 (3).
I think hardcore Multiculturalism does more to take away liberties than it does to preserve them.
Ever heard of Betteridge's law?
Nope. But here's something else I posted in a message to someone else:
quote:
"Somali-Americans who Fled Civil War Confront Tribalism in New Home" from Minnesota Public Radio News:
When Somalis fled their war-torn homeland over the last two decades, many took with them the seeds of discord underlying the conflict.
Following the collapse of the dictatorship that ruled Somalia in the early 1990s, a renewed focus on tribalism fueled civil war, forcing hundreds of thousands to flee their homes.
"We have seen parents, youngsters get raped in front of us by other tribe, killed by other tribe," said Shacido Shaie, a 29-year-old Somali activist in the Twin Cities. "They killed someone you loved. They destroyed the entire country. You can never forget that."
Many Somalis found new homes in Europe and the United States. Like immigrants from other countries, they often became targets of racism. But in the last five years, they've focused on a different kind of prejudice how some in the Somali community discriminate against other Somalis from different tribes.
I presumed there had been something in the media or blogosphere or something that you had noticed this happening and was wondering if you had some examples of this? I presumed you had something other than the 'War on Christmas', perhaps to do with Thanksgiving or some other uniquely American, entirely secular celebration such as July 4th being 'hidden' and/or 'suppress[ed]'.
Halloween. The district I worked in had an official policy against it and did not permit costumes. I don't think it would be right to post the internal policy verbatim, but the stated reason for the policy was to be 'inclusive' of people from other cultures, which of course makes no sense and really boiled down to removing the holiday to avoid having certain minority children feel left out (since they did not celebrate Halloween out of religious or cultural belief).
Of course kids talk, and the minority children still felt like crap for not getting to dress up like monsters and get free candy; the majority children felt like crap for not getting to do it in school.
Lose-lose. But it wasn't developed for winning; it was just developed to be 'Multicultural'.
OK. So this is what we have now, isn't it? You just want to include some kind of civics or citizenship studies in there. OK so let's have a look at Social Studies.
Individual courses are great, but I think more could be done. I can't say much for middle and high school (where social studies are primarily taught); I've only worked in the lower grades and with adults.
At the adult level I've observed a disruptive allowance for cultural differences. Two examples come to mind; one is prayer time. The other is respect for classroom policies and learning norms.
Should we be stopping classes to allow prayer breaks? That's how it goes now. The students who don't need to pray X number of times during class? They get that much less instruction. Is respecting one culture worth disrespecting another?
It was also typical for many of our students to have group discussions while the teacher was delivering her lesson, sometimes for a few minutes at a time. You can't really enforce basic decency rules with adults, you just have to tell them what they are and hope they follow them. What does this mean for the students who actually want to listen to the teacher and learn? They find her instruction crowded out by the obnoxious chattering of their classmates. Is respecting one culture worth disrespecting another?
Anyway, you sent me a link to an article. But it's past midnight in Minnesota, so I will read it tomorrow and update.
Jon
ABE:
Read the article now. I'm not sure what relevance it has to the discussion. Cultural contact can be detrimental for many reasons, but the loss of a particular culture or some of its practices does not seem to be one of those reasons.
Diversity for diversity's sake is, to me, outside of reason.
The economic arguments are much better than the arguments decrying lost diversity. And a lot of the problems indicated seem more the result of greedy business interests than the natural development of cultural contact. It seems more relevant to the issue of 'globalization as economics' than 'globalization as culture'.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Modulous, posted 09-30-2014 11:53 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 143 of 1234 (737852)
10-01-2014 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Dogmafood
09-30-2014 10:53 PM


Re: Evidence for Multiculturalism's Efficacy
In 2004 the attorney general of Ontario proposed that we allow for the settling of disputes using Sharia law.
Is this like allowing an arbitration settlement if all parties agree to the arbitrator?

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 144 of 1234 (737854)
10-01-2014 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Dogmafood
09-30-2014 11:01 PM


Re: Evidence for Multiculturalism's Efficacy
No.
And yet actually, that's more than one culture. So "Actually, that's more than one culture" would have been quite a sensible answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Dogmafood, posted 09-30-2014 11:01 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 145 of 1234 (737857)
10-01-2014 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by nwr
10-01-2014 1:33 AM


Re: Evidence for Multiculturalism's Efficacy
Is this like allowing an arbitration settlement if all parties agree to the arbitrator?
Yeah it is kind of like that if one of the parties is tied up in the corner and agrees under threat of dismemberment.
Here is a bit of a list of what Sharia law includes.
quote:
According to the Sharia law:
Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand (above).
Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death.
Criticizing or denying Muhammad is a prophet is punishable by death.
Criticizing or denying Allah, the moon god of Islam is punishable by death.
A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death.
A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.
A non-Muslim man who marries a Muslim woman is punishable by death.
A man can marry an infant girl and consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old.
Girls' clitoris should be cut (per Muhammad's words in Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).
A woman can have 1 husband, but a man can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.
A man can unilaterally divorce his wife but a woman needs her husband's consent to divorce.
A man can beat his wife for insubordination.
Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman.
A woman who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).
A woman's testimony in court, allowed only in property cases, carries half the weight of a man's.
A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits.
A woman cannot drive a car, as it leads to fitnah (upheaval).
A woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative.
Meat to be eaten must come from animals that have been sacrificed to Allah - i.e., be Halal.
Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.
The list goes on.
Source

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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 146 of 1234 (737858)
10-01-2014 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Dr Adequate
10-01-2014 2:51 AM


Re: Evidence for Multiculturalism's Efficacy
And yet actually, that's more than one culture. So "Actually, that's more than one culture" would have been quite a sensible answer.
Now that you have finished answering your own question I am glad to see that you agree with yourself.
Little Italy and China town are the contributions that the previous cultures have made to their new culture. They are examples of how a melting pot does not require the destruction of preexisting cultural practices as long as they do not breach the laws of their new country. These are examples of cultural practices not only surviving but flourishing under a set of laws that apply to everyone and without the mollycoddling of multiculturalism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-01-2014 2:51 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Tangle, posted 10-01-2014 8:26 AM Dogmafood has replied
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 147 of 1234 (737859)
10-01-2014 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Dogmafood
10-01-2014 8:15 AM


Re: Evidence for Multiculturalism's Efficacy
ProtoTypical writes:
Little Italy and China town are the contributions that the previous cultures have made to their new culture. They are examples of how a melting pot does not require the destruction of preexisting cultural practices as long as they do not breach the laws of their new country. These are examples of cultural practices not only surviving but flourishing under a set of laws that apply to everyone and without the mollycoddling of multiculturalism.
They're not examples of melting pots, they're the exact opposite - enclaves of single races living peaceably within a host country is actually an example of multiculturalism. The melting pot idea is where all races interbreed and live homogeneously.
There's nothing about multiculturalism that requires mollycoddling - immigrants need to live by the laws of the country they settle in.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Dogmafood, posted 10-01-2014 8:15 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 148 of 1234 (737866)
10-01-2014 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Dogmafood
10-01-2014 8:02 AM


Re: Evidence for Multiculturalism's Efficacy
Yeah it is kind of like that if one of the parties is tied up in the corner and agrees under threat of dismemberment.
Here is a bit of a list of what Sharia law includes.
a) There is no 'Sharia' as a single entity like there is no single 'Christian morality'. For instance 'A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death.' is based on a very questionable Hadith that plenty of Islamic scholars simply reject
b) Try getting your knowledge of Islam from somewhere that isn't a rival religious group
c) The Attorney general was only talking about the settling of civil disputes, so much of your list is obviously not applicable
d) Sharia only would be allowed as dispute resolution as long as the resolution is within Ontario law. Thus murder, dismemberment and child abuse are automatically excluded anyway.
So...try again.
Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.
Did you even look Taqiyya up?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Dogmafood, posted 10-01-2014 8:02 AM Dogmafood has replied

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 1234 (737867)
10-01-2014 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Dogmafood
10-01-2014 8:02 AM


Re: Evidence for Multiculturalism's Efficacy
Here is a bit of a list of what Sharia law includes.
The police are not going to avoid prosecuting criminal matter stuff. Nobody is by policy allowing people to handle their own rape cases. So citing Sharia law provisions for those things is ridiculous. And if punishments are criminal, then those are going to run afoul of the law as well. Nobody in this country at least has a policy of making people exempt from criminal law.
On the other hand, some religions here do practice shunning and other religious punishments for goofy reasons. And it is all tolerated.
Arbitration would be used only for civil disputes. Kinda like how if you have a dispute with your cable company you don't get to go to court and sue because you've agreed to arbitration. You've also the rules for who wins and looses and the limits on possible remedies when you signed your contract. Time Warner however cannot cut off your hand regardless of how much cable you steal.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Dogmafood, posted 10-01-2014 8:02 AM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(2)
Message 150 of 1234 (737870)
10-01-2014 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Tangle
10-01-2014 8:26 AM


Re: Evidence for Multiculturalism's Efficacy
They're not examples of melting pots, they're the exact opposite - enclaves of single races living peaceably within a host country is actually an example of multiculturalism. The melting pot idea is where all races interbreed and live homogeneously.
Well I would much rather be interbreeding than inbreeding.
They are an example that directly contradicts the notion that the melting pot is somehow oppressive. They are an example of how many cultures can thrive under one infrastructure.

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 Message 147 by Tangle, posted 10-01-2014 8:26 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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