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Author Topic:   Multiculturalism
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 391 of 1234 (739105)
10-20-2014 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by Jon
10-20-2014 12:44 PM


Re: Multiculturalism and Crime
Jon writes:
Non respondisti.
On the contrary, I'm challenging you to support how your conclusion follows. Show how multiculturalism is causing the downfall of society.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by Jon, posted 10-20-2014 12:44 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by Jon, posted 10-20-2014 1:21 PM ringo has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 392 of 1234 (739107)
10-20-2014 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by ringo
10-20-2014 12:00 PM


Yes, you were mistaken - but my phrasing might have been unclear. "What I am advocating" in that quote is the process by which legislators discuss the status quo and propose measures which may or may not improve it.
That process is 'the way things are' at the moment.
You are advocating for this.
Therefore, my rhetorical question, 'You're advocating for the way things are?' shows no signs of me having been mistaken.
No doubt lines will be drawn but there is no "Way". We need to look at individual issues individually.
How would we do that? Say some 11 year old girl is discovered to have had Type III FGM performed on her. How do we look at this case individually? If it is not illegal, the police can't get involved, the hospital have no rights to answers about a persons deep private life, and the government has no business either. At best, a private/scientific exploration might be possible, with the consent of the family, which probably won't happen. So we're stuck, right? Is this the same situation if she is raped or sexually abused?
Alternatively, if it was illegal, we could examine each case individually and use what we learn to refine the law and supporting legal system.
Do you have any personal views about what should be considered the 'line' - with all due philosophical tentativity of course.
There may be some practices that we can't condone and there may be others where we need to hold our noses and accept them.
Indeed - but I see you won't put forward your own views for discussion, preferring a hands off and content-free position of 'we should do the wise thing'. Do you think multiculturalism causes any harms, does it promote anything beneficial? Do you want to actually address the topic?
Hence my original suggestion that we need to look at our own values first. Can we live with distasteful "foreign" practices or can we live with ourselves if we suppress them?
Did I dispute this? Or did I instead try and talk to you about the specific cases of FGM as a candidate practice we might prefer to suppress over accepting. After all, it breaches human rights to perform it. So surely we should not be ignoring established human rights just because we don't want to upset some cultural groups?
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by ringo, posted 10-20-2014 12:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by ringo, posted 10-20-2014 1:15 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 393 of 1234 (739108)
10-20-2014 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by jar
10-20-2014 12:45 PM


Learning to deal with and understand other cultures is difficult and no culture has all the answers.
Of course.
Wasting time on passing laws criminalizing FGM is just utterly stupid and only makes the situation worse
Perhaps you could support this argument?
Lets deal with getting drunk drivers off the roads and other important issues.
Lets. But unless you propose that DUI is typically performed by a specific cultural group or related groups, it wouldn't really be on topic. You can't be suggesting putting a moratorium on legislation until one specific crime is wiped out permanently can you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by jar, posted 10-20-2014 12:45 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by jar, posted 10-20-2014 3:48 PM Modulous has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 394 of 1234 (739109)
10-20-2014 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by Modulous
10-20-2014 12:57 PM


Modulous writes:
That process is 'the way things are' at the moment.
You are advocating for this.
I'm advocating for using the process.
Modulous writes:
Say some 11 year old girl is discovered to have had Type III FGM performed on her. How do we look at this case individually? If it is not illegal, the police can't get involved, the hospital have no rights to enquire into a persons deep private life, and the government has no business either.
Isn't it already illegal under existing laws to cut up an 11-year-old girl without anesthetic?
Modulous writes:
Do you think multiculturalism causes any harms, does it promote anything beneficial?
It definitely has benefits, or don't you like pizza? It may well have harmful effects too. So does water. We have to consider the good with the bad.
Modulous writes:
Did I dispute this?
I have no @#$%ing idea what you're disputing.
Modulous writes:
After all, it breaches human rights to perform it.
Does it? What about the human rights of the 1000 Maasai women who have experienced it and still advocate it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Modulous, posted 10-20-2014 12:57 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by Jon, posted 10-20-2014 1:24 PM ringo has replied
 Message 406 by Modulous, posted 10-20-2014 1:59 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 395 of 1234 (739110)
10-20-2014 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by ringo
10-20-2014 12:50 PM


Re: Multiculturalism and Crime
Show how multiculturalism is causing the downfall of society.
I didn't say it was causing the downfall of society. I said it was poisoning Western society.
Do you think determining sentences based on race, culture, or origin is poisonous?
Do you think child sex trafficking is poisonous?
Do you think tribalism is poisonous?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by ringo, posted 10-20-2014 12:50 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by ringo, posted 10-20-2014 1:27 PM Jon has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 396 of 1234 (739111)
10-20-2014 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 388 by Modulous
10-20-2014 12:43 PM


Modulous writes:
If all you have is the most generic answer to questions I wasn't asking you, perhaps you shouldn't answer?
"Perhaps" not. "Perhaps" you should take your own advice. Perhaps "perhaps" is a useful word after all.
Modulous writes:
The way things are done in science is to provide one word meaningless answers to questions which necessarily contained that answer as part of the framing of the question?
The way things are done in science is to say "maybe this" and then test it. What I'm saying in this thread is that we should be testing our own ideas, not just pontificating on other people's ideas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by Modulous, posted 10-20-2014 12:43 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by Modulous, posted 10-20-2014 1:25 PM ringo has replied
 Message 400 by Jon, posted 10-20-2014 1:29 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 397 of 1234 (739112)
10-20-2014 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by ringo
10-20-2014 1:15 PM


It definitely has benefits, or don't you like pizza?
But this thread isn't about that kind of Multiculturalism.
You would think that nearly 400 posts in the topic would be crystal clear.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by ringo, posted 10-20-2014 1:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by ringo, posted 10-20-2014 1:32 PM Jon has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 398 of 1234 (739113)
10-20-2014 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by ringo
10-20-2014 1:22 PM


What I'm saying in this thread is that we should be testing our own ideas, not just pontificating on other people's ideas.
Then how do we test 'FGM is immoral and should be a criminal offense'?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by ringo, posted 10-20-2014 1:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by ringo, posted 10-20-2014 1:30 PM Modulous has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 399 of 1234 (739114)
10-20-2014 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by Jon
10-20-2014 1:21 PM


Re: Multiculturalism and Crime
Jon writes:
I didn't say it was causing the downfall of society. I said it was poisoning Western society.
So poison isn't a downfall?
Jon writes:
Do you think determining sentences based on race, culture, or origin is poisonous?
No. I think the cases you cited made wise decisions. Sentences should be based on individual circumstances and individual circumstances may sometimes include culture.
Jon writes:
Do you think tribalism is poisonous?
Do you think water is poisonous?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Jon, posted 10-20-2014 1:21 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by Jon, posted 10-20-2014 1:33 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 400 of 1234 (739115)
10-20-2014 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by ringo
10-20-2014 1:22 PM


What I'm saying in this thread is that we should be testing our own ideas, not just pontificating on other people's ideas.
We have tested ours. We've also tested theirs.
Ours are better.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by ringo, posted 10-20-2014 1:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by ringo, posted 10-21-2014 12:20 PM Jon has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 401 of 1234 (739116)
10-20-2014 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 398 by Modulous
10-20-2014 1:25 PM


Modulous writes:
Then how do we test 'FGM is immoral and should be a criminal offense'?
The same way we'd test, "Eating pizza is immoral and should be a criminal offense." We'd need to start with a reassessment of our idea of morality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Modulous, posted 10-20-2014 1:25 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by Jon, posted 10-20-2014 1:44 PM ringo has replied
 Message 407 by Modulous, posted 10-20-2014 2:09 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 402 of 1234 (739117)
10-20-2014 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by Jon
10-20-2014 1:24 PM


Jon writes:
But this thread isn't about that kind of Multiculturalism.
You can't pick and choose "kinds" of multiculturalism. When immigrants come you get the whole package of their culture, the good and the bad. You can't accept or reject pizza on different principles than you accept or reject anything else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by Jon, posted 10-20-2014 1:24 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by Jon, posted 10-20-2014 1:38 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 403 of 1234 (739118)
10-20-2014 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 399 by ringo
10-20-2014 1:27 PM


Re: Multiculturalism and Crime
Sentences should be based on individual circumstances and individual circumstances may sometimes include culture.
We all know what you believe.
What's lacking is your demonstration that your believed way is better.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by ringo, posted 10-20-2014 1:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by ringo, posted 10-21-2014 12:24 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 404 of 1234 (739119)
10-20-2014 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by ringo
10-20-2014 1:32 PM


You can't pick and choose "kinds" of multiculturalism. When immigrants come you get the whole package of their culture, the good and the bad. You can't accept or reject pizza on different principles than you accept or reject anything else.
Not on topic.
This thread is about Multiculturalism policies, either explicit or implicit.
Letting a con-man off easy because he's a 'Gypsy' is implicit Multiculturalism.
Writing a law that says sentencing considerations should pay "particular attention to aboriginal offenders" is explicit Multiculturalism.
That's the topic.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by ringo, posted 10-20-2014 1:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by ringo, posted 10-21-2014 12:32 PM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 405 of 1234 (739121)
10-20-2014 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by ringo
10-20-2014 1:30 PM


The same way we'd test, "Eating pizza is immoral and should be a criminal offense." We'd need to start with a reassessment of our idea of morality.
Of course not.
We don't need to reassess our idea of morality to conclude that eating pizza is okay but that Type III FGM is not.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by ringo, posted 10-20-2014 1:30 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by ringo, posted 10-21-2014 12:34 PM Jon has replied

  
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