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Author Topic:   Multiculturalism
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 736 of 1234 (742463)
11-20-2014 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 735 by Tangle
11-20-2014 11:53 AM


Tangle writes:
Should we honour this cultural practice?
What do you not understand? If you think somebody is a "victim" but they decide that they are not victims, then we should consider their opinion.
Go ahead and show us that any of the victims of human sacrifice are advocating human sacrifice. You do understand that the victims of human sacrifice are dead, don't you? You do understand that dead people have limited powers of advocacy, don't you?
If you want a different answer, ask a different question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 735 by Tangle, posted 11-20-2014 11:53 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 737 by Tangle, posted 11-20-2014 12:14 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 737 of 1234 (742468)
11-20-2014 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 736 by ringo
11-20-2014 11:58 AM


Ringo writes:
If you want a different answer, ask a different question.
As you may have noticed, unlike you, I don't have the patience to continue arguments to the limits of their absurdity, but I'll try one last time.
The Aztecs made sacrifices of their own children - just for special occasions. Children do not have the power to give their consent. Those that advocate FGM also 'volunteer' their children. Neither child examples are in a position to 'decide whether they are victims or not.'
What is the difference?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 736 by ringo, posted 11-20-2014 11:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 738 by ringo, posted 11-20-2014 12:20 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 738 of 1234 (742469)
11-20-2014 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 737 by Tangle
11-20-2014 12:14 PM


Tangle writes:
What is the difference?
As I have said twice, the difference is that the dead victims of human sacrifice do not go on to advocate for human sacrifice. They do not change their dead minds.
I'm sure you can come up with similarities between FGM and human sacrifice. The perpetrators and the victims all have toes, for example.
But you asked for the difference and I told you. If you want a different answer, ask a different question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 737 by Tangle, posted 11-20-2014 12:14 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 739 by Tangle, posted 11-20-2014 12:38 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 739 of 1234 (742473)
11-20-2014 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 738 by ringo
11-20-2014 12:20 PM


Ringo writes:
If you want a different answer, ask a different question.
No thanks, I'm done for now. Troll on.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 738 by ringo, posted 11-20-2014 12:20 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 740 of 1234 (742549)
11-21-2014 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 728 by ringo
11-20-2014 10:45 AM


Cat's Eye writes:
That's discussed in the report too.
If you have a point to make, bring it here.
(╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻
When I make my point, you ask me to support it.
When I provide you support, you ask me to make my point.
You're just dancing around in circles.
My points can be found in the following messages:
Message 622
Message 626
Message 631
Message 633
Message 639
Message 641

This message is a reply to:
 Message 728 by ringo, posted 11-20-2014 10:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 741 by ringo, posted 11-22-2014 10:41 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 741 of 1234 (742599)
11-22-2014 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 740 by New Cat's Eye
11-21-2014 3:59 PM


Cat's Eye writes:
When I provide you support, you ask me to make my point.
You said, "That's discussed in the report too." So tell us in your own words how that discussion in the report supports your point.
Cat's Eye writes:
You're just dancing around in circles.
If your "point" is chasing its own tail, the only way I can catch it is by chasing it in circles. If you had a strong point....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 740 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-21-2014 3:59 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 742 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-22-2014 2:15 PM ringo has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 742 of 1234 (742632)
11-22-2014 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 741 by ringo
11-22-2014 10:41 AM


You said, "That's discussed in the report too." So tell us in your own words how that discussion in the report supports your point.
They did research and gathered data and came to conclusions that are the same as some of my points.
The format of that pdf makes it hard to copy and paste. If you were displaying more honest debating techniques, I might be more inclined to spoon-feed you, but you're not so I won't.
If your "point" is chasing its own tail, the only way I can catch it is by chasing it in circles.
How are any of my points chasing their own tail? That's a complete non sequitur.
You're dancing around in circles because you're responding to points with a call for support, and responding to the support with a call for points. That's independent of what the actual point is.
If you had a strong point....
All points are weak when you dig your heals in and close your eyes.
You have yet to make a factual counter-point...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 741 by ringo, posted 11-22-2014 10:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 743 by ringo, posted 11-22-2014 2:29 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 743 of 1234 (742635)
11-22-2014 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 742 by New Cat's Eye
11-22-2014 2:15 PM


Cat's Eye writes:
How are any of my points chasing their own tail?
All I'm doing is criticizing your so-called position, so if I'm going in circles it's because your position is going in circles.
Cat's Eye writes:
You're dancing around in circles because you're responding to points with a call for support, and responding to the support with a call for points.
Bullshit. You're refusing, in this very post, to provide support because it's "hard to copy and paste" from a PDF.
Cat's Eye writes:
All points are weak when you dig your heals in and close your eyes.
If you had a strong point, you'd present it for the lurkers. You wouldn't worry about my eyes being closed.
(Mind you, you'd better make sure you're clear on what the point is before you put too much effort into it.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 742 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-22-2014 2:15 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 744 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-22-2014 3:00 PM ringo has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 744 of 1234 (742643)
11-22-2014 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 743 by ringo
11-22-2014 2:29 PM


Bullshit. You're refusing, in this very post, to provide support because it's "hard to copy and paste" from a PDF.
Nope, not from a pdf. From that pdf, because of the formatting.
And you would know this if you bothered to click on the link and peak at page 14 like I asked you to.
If you had a strong point, you'd present it for the lurkers. You wouldn't worry about my eyes being closed.
Its a matter of having the time, which I haven't had much of this week. But I do today, and it'll be faster to link to a screenshot than deal with trying to copy and paste with this formatting, check it out:
(click to enlarge)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 743 by ringo, posted 11-22-2014 2:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 745 by ringo, posted 11-22-2014 3:12 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 745 of 1234 (742647)
11-22-2014 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 744 by New Cat's Eye
11-22-2014 3:00 PM


Cat's Eye writes:
And you would know this if you bothered to click on the link and peak at page 14 like I asked you to.
I did read page 14 but thanks for finally posting it.
The question remains: How do you think it supports your position?
I have not disputed that FGM is a social norm. I have not disputed the sociological reasons for the continuing existence of FGM.
What I am disputing is putting people in prison for praciticing a social norm. What I am suggesting is that social norms should be considered as social norms by our legal system and not equivocated with abnormal behaviour such as child abuse.
Edited by ringo, : Spellng.
Edited by ringo, : Moar spllinge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 744 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-22-2014 3:00 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 746 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-22-2014 3:21 PM ringo has replied
 Message 747 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-22-2014 3:24 PM ringo has replied
 Message 748 by Coyote, posted 11-22-2014 3:24 PM ringo has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 746 of 1234 (742648)
11-22-2014 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 745 by ringo
11-22-2014 3:12 PM


What I am disputing is putting people in prison for praciticing a social norm. What I am suggesting is that social norms should be considered as social norms by our legal system and not equivocated with abnormal behaviour such as child abuse.
Except that when you become a citizen of a country, you agree to follow their laws instead of practicing illegal social norms.
Nobody is talking about imprisoning the women who say they want to keep the practice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 745 by ringo, posted 11-22-2014 3:12 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 749 by ringo, posted 11-23-2014 1:33 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 747 of 1234 (742649)
11-22-2014 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 745 by ringo
11-22-2014 3:12 PM


I have not disputed the sociological reasons for the continuing existence of FGM.
Then what did you mean by this?:
quote:
If she says she ain't abused, she ain't.
That statement discounts the sociological reasons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 745 by ringo, posted 11-22-2014 3:12 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 750 by ringo, posted 11-23-2014 1:38 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 748 of 1234 (742650)
11-22-2014 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 745 by ringo
11-22-2014 3:12 PM


What I am disputing is putting people in prison for praciticing a social norm. What I am suggesting is that social norms should be considered as social norms by our legal system and not equivocated with abnormal behaviour such as child abuse.
If you want to consider various behaviors as "social norms" you must place them in the society to which they belong.
What is a social norm in one place isn't always acceptable elsewhere.
Our legal system is not obliged to ignore beheadings because someone's daughter dated the wrong fellow, not is blasphemy a crime punishable by death here just because it offends someone's sensibilities.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 745 by ringo, posted 11-22-2014 3:12 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 751 by ringo, posted 11-23-2014 1:44 PM Coyote has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 749 of 1234 (742724)
11-23-2014 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 746 by New Cat's Eye
11-22-2014 3:21 PM


Cat's Eye writes:
Nobody is talking about imprisoning the women who say they want to keep the practice.
I asked you that very question a number of times. In Message 710 I asked, "So it's "more compassionate" to separate a young girl from her mother by throwing the mother in prison?" and in Message 711 you said, "Sure, we should remove children from abusive homes. Its the right thing to do."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 746 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-22-2014 3:21 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 756 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-24-2014 11:52 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 750 of 1234 (742726)
11-23-2014 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 747 by New Cat's Eye
11-22-2014 3:24 PM


Cat's Eye writes:
ringo writes:
If she says she ain't abused, she ain't.
That statement discounts the sociological reasons.
No, it puts other reasons, such as compassionate reasons, ahead of sociological reasons. If a society has ingrained reasons for a certain practice, whether those reasons are good or bad, we are not forced to ignore their stated feelings in favour of our own calculations. We can, and sometimes should, make allowances.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-22-2014 3:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 757 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-24-2014 12:10 PM ringo has replied

  
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