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Author Topic:   Multiculturalism
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9512
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 946 of 1234 (743968)
12-06-2014 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 943 by ringo
12-06-2014 10:56 AM


Re: The Line
Ring writes:
Do you think a law could survive an appeal if it allowed male circumcision but not one tiny nick on the female genitals?
Yes.
I realise you're just in this thread to be an arsehole, but at least pretend to read the stuff you ask for and are then given. It's called female genital mutilation for a reason.
(1)A person is guilty of an offence if he excises, infibulates or otherwise mutilates the whole or any part of a girl’s labia majora, labia minora or clitoris.
6Definitions
(1) Girl includes woman.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 943 by ringo, posted 12-06-2014 10:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 947 by ringo, posted 12-06-2014 11:33 AM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 947 of 1234 (743969)
12-06-2014 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 946 by Tangle
12-06-2014 11:25 AM


Re: The Line
Tangle writes:
ringo writes:
Do you think a law could survive an appeal if it allowed male circumcision but not one tiny nick on the female genitals?
Yes.
How?
Have you thought about this at all? There has to be a point at which a blade in the vicinity of the female genitals is less "mutilation" than male circumcision. If the law is going to treat males and females equally, you can't prohibit something in females while allowing something more severe in males.
Please try to actually discuss the topic instead of providing nothing but, "Nuh uh."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 946 by Tangle, posted 12-06-2014 11:25 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 948 by Tangle, posted 12-06-2014 11:57 AM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9512
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 948 of 1234 (743973)
12-06-2014 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 947 by ringo
12-06-2014 11:33 AM


Re: The Line
Ringo writes:
Have you thought about this at all? There has to be a point at which a blade in the vicinity of the female genitals is less "mutilation" than male circumcision.
Irrelevant, the law applies to females only.
If the law is going to treat males and females equally, you can't prohibit something in females while allowing something more severe in males.
The law does not treat male and female genitalia equally because male and female genitalia are not the same. The law can and does discriminate in this matter.
I have also answered your tediously repeated question about whether it *should*. My opinion is that male circumcision, if it was an offence, would be a much lessor one because the harm is trivial in comparison, does not create a permanent disability and the intent is not malign.
I'm also not totally convinced male circumcision would be a legal act if introduced today, but we live with these minor inconsistencies.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 947 by ringo, posted 12-06-2014 11:33 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 949 by ringo, posted 12-06-2014 12:04 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 949 of 1234 (743974)
12-06-2014 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 948 by Tangle
12-06-2014 11:57 AM


Re: The Line
Tangle writes:
Irrelevant, the law applies to females only.
That's exactly what makes it relevant. How can a sexist law stand?
Tangle writes:
The law does not treat male and female genitalia equally because male and female genitalia are not the same.
Irrelevant. Many things about males and females are different but that doesn't excuse different treatment. By your logic, we might as well use the fact that men's and women's brains are 'wired' differently to bar women from jobs that (supposedly) require one type of wiring. That kind of thinking is what we've been trying to get away from for more than a century.
Tangle writes:
My opinion is that male circumcision, if it was an offence, would be a much lessor one because the harm is trivial in comparison, does not create a permanent disability and the intent is not malign.
But you keep equivocating the worst form of FGM with ANY alteration of the female genitals. I keep asking you why one tiny nick would be "more harmful" than male circumcision and you either can't or won't give a cogent answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 948 by Tangle, posted 12-06-2014 11:57 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 952 by Tangle, posted 12-06-2014 12:41 PM ringo has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8562
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 950 of 1234 (743976)
12-06-2014 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 944 by ringo
12-06-2014 11:02 AM


Re: The Line
Seriously, if you have such a strong case, why do you have to resort to such low-down tactics to make it?
What low-down tactics?
Calling torture, torture and calling butchery, butchery?
It's quite obvious to any caring human being.
Have you seen the videos, ringo?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 944 by ringo, posted 12-06-2014 11:02 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 951 by ringo, posted 12-06-2014 12:30 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 951 of 1234 (743977)
12-06-2014 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 950 by AZPaul3
12-06-2014 12:25 PM


Re: The Line
AZPaul3 writes:
Calling torture, torture and calling butchery, butchery?
Words have meanings. You're twisting the meaning of "butchery" and "torture" for emotive value. I explained what they mean. Why do you persist in using your own made-up definitions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 950 by AZPaul3, posted 12-06-2014 12:25 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 955 by AZPaul3, posted 12-07-2014 6:42 AM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9512
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 952 of 1234 (743978)
12-06-2014 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 949 by ringo
12-06-2014 12:04 PM


Re: The Line
Ringo writes:
That's exactly what makes it relevant. How can a sexist law stand?
For the simple reason that it is an anti-sexist law. It is designed to prevent harm to women. FGM discriminates against women in the worst possible way.
That kind of thinking is what we've been trying to get away from for more than a century.
Correct and that is exactly what this law does - it protects women from being subjugated and harmed by men. That's why the first world is universally supportive of it, including every feminist anti-discriminatory campaign organisation you can name.
(It's also why you find yourself on your own on the wrong side of the argument.)
I now await your anti-discriminatory campaign to prevent the circumcision of young boys. Which I would consider supporting.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 949 by ringo, posted 12-06-2014 12:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 956 by ringo, posted 12-07-2014 1:09 PM Tangle has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 953 of 1234 (743980)
12-07-2014 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 945 by ringo
12-06-2014 11:06 AM


Re: The Line
Let's see.... If Tangle said that pigs can not fly, I would concur. In that event, the aeronautical characteristics of pigs would be irrelevant, wouldn't they?
Your analogy is idiotic. But then you are pretty good at making broken analogies aren't you?
When we say that children cannot consent, we mean that at their current level of maturity, they cannot make an informed decision. But we expect them to grow out of that situation, which leaves open the possibility that they can express a relative consent if their parents do not operate to deprive them of such.
Since it is perfectly possible to hold off on FGM until children reach an age of consent, then their consent is not irrelevant.
On the other hand, pigs won't grow up to fly.
I do not believe that you failed to understand the difference. At this point you appear to be deliberately dissembling. Your ridiculous line of argument would support doing things to a child that no one could doubt were abusive.
Sorry but there is still no right to march your children into an oven.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 945 by ringo, posted 12-06-2014 11:06 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 957 by ringo, posted 12-07-2014 1:18 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 954 of 1234 (743981)
12-07-2014 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 940 by ringo
12-06-2014 10:37 AM


Re: The Line
Sure there is, if the powers that be say there is. Don't confuse "rights" with what "is" right.
Which has not happened.
There is no right to murder your child.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 940 by ringo, posted 12-06-2014 10:37 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 958 by ringo, posted 12-07-2014 1:22 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8562
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 955 of 1234 (744002)
12-07-2014 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 951 by ringo
12-06-2014 12:30 PM


Re: The Line
You're twisting the meaning of "butchery" and "torture" for emotive value.
Have you seen the videos, ringo?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 951 by ringo, posted 12-06-2014 12:30 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 959 by ringo, posted 12-07-2014 1:25 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 956 of 1234 (744013)
12-07-2014 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 952 by Tangle
12-06-2014 12:41 PM


Re: The Line
Tangle writes:
FGM discriminates against women in the worst possible way.
Many of the women disagree with you.
Tangle writes:
(It's also why you find yourself on your own on the wrong side of the argument.)
If anybody else wants to pile on, they're certainly welcome to.
I'll say again... I do not support FGM. But since this is a debate forum, every position needs to have a counter-position. My opposition OUGHT to strengthen your argument but all you seem to have is evasion.
Tangle writes:
I now await your anti-discriminatory campaign to prevent the circumcision of young boys. Which I would consider supporting.
I suspect you would, which is why I keep asking where you draw the line. I'm looking in the opposite direction, removing restrictions rather than adding more. If you're willing to eradicate male circumcision, what next?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 952 by Tangle, posted 12-06-2014 12:41 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 960 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2014 2:59 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 957 of 1234 (744014)
12-07-2014 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 953 by NoNukes
12-07-2014 12:25 AM


Re: The Line
NoNukes writes:
Your analogy is idiotic.
According to your cronies, I'm also stupid and a terrible person.
NoNukes writes:
But then you are pretty good at making broken analogies aren't you?
Well, you're bad at understanding analogies, aren't you, Mr. Literal?
NoNukes writes:
When we say that children cannot consent, we mean that at their current level of maturity, they cannot make an informed decision. But we expect them to grow out of that situation, which leaves open the possibility that they can express a relative consent if their parents do not operate to deprive them of such.
Of course. The same applies to ANY situation in which a parent makes a decision for a child. And in the case of FGM, many of the children do grow up to support it.
NoNukes writes:
Your ridiculous line of argument would support doing things to a child that no one could doubt were abusive.
That's where you and the rest of the hysteria-mongers in this thread go wrong. You don't get to force your idea of "abuse" on everybody. If they don't think it's abuse, it ain't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 953 by NoNukes, posted 12-07-2014 12:25 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 958 of 1234 (744016)
12-07-2014 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 954 by NoNukes
12-07-2014 12:26 AM


Re: The Line
NoNukes writes:
ringo writes:
Don't confuse "rights" with what "is" right.
Which has not happened.
There is no right to murder your child.
There is if the powers that be grant you that right. It may not "be" right to kill your child but a government can certainly give you the right to do it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 954 by NoNukes, posted 12-07-2014 12:26 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 959 of 1234 (744017)
12-07-2014 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 955 by AZPaul3
12-07-2014 6:42 AM


Re: The Line
AZPaul3 writes:
ringo writes:
You're twisting the meaning of "butchery" and "torture" for emotive value.
Have you seen the videos, ringo?
Have you ever heard of childbirth? I'm told it can be quite painful.
Pain does not equate to either "torture" or "butchery". Please stop equivocating. It's dishonest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 955 by AZPaul3, posted 12-07-2014 6:42 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 961 by AZPaul3, posted 12-07-2014 3:02 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9512
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 960 of 1234 (744028)
12-07-2014 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 956 by ringo
12-07-2014 1:09 PM


Re: The Line
ringo writes:
Many of the women disagree with you.
So what - paedophiles also disagree that they harm children; oddly enough society insists they stop anyway.
I'll say again... I do not support FGM.
Then now would be a good time to stop actually supporting it.
I suspect you would, which is why I keep asking where you draw the line.
And I keep saying I'm not interested in drawing your damn silly line. My line is to protect the children from those that would do them harm with FGM in my country.
I'm all out of troll food for a while.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 956 by ringo, posted 12-07-2014 1:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 963 by ringo, posted 12-08-2014 10:54 AM Tangle has seen this message but not replied

  
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