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Author Topic:   Multiculturalism
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 1096 of 1234 (747686)
01-18-2015 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1093 by Tangle
01-18-2015 12:55 PM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
'Guilty of multiculturalism' is a strange thing to say.
I was using your own wording for the sake of parallelism, obviously.
We've been naive in thinking that other cultures will adopt to our laws if we don't educate a enforce them.
That navet is Multiculturalism. The failure of many in the West to stand up for the freedoms and liberties that make the West the wonderful place to live that it is and the willingness to instead bow to the anti-freedom ideologies of terrorists and the religiously backwards is exactly why Multiculturalism is a problem. When you believe that all values are equal, you lose the incentive to stand up for those that are actually superior.
quote:
Bruce Bawer in Surrender (2009):
Multiculturalism, a peculiarly Western set of attitudes about the non-Western world, doesn't mean viewing people with non-Western backgrounds as individuals and caring whether they live under governments that grant them the same liberties we enjoy; it means exalting non-Western groups, treating their collective values (however illiberal) as sacrosanct, and either choosing not to notice their lack of freedom or pretending that there's no such thing as freedom or, alternatively, taking the attitude that while freedom may be fine for us, because we're Westerners, a lack of freedom is just as good, if not better, for them, because, well, that's their culture and who are we to criticize it? (p. 19)
You seem entirely to agree that it is misplaced to hold cultural sensitivities above individual liberties or relax our enforcement of liberating laws at the behest of cultures that have no respect for such liberties. Yet you appear equally unwilling to apply the label Multiculturalism to these things
But Multiculturalism is exactly what it is. It's time to start calling it for what it is.
Jon writes:
Tangle writes:
And then we had these stupid and unnecessary wars that made everything many, many times worse - what the hell were we thinking?.
What's the alternative?
There isn't one.
Then where's the beef?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1093 by Tangle, posted 01-18-2015 12:55 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1097 by Tangle, posted 01-18-2015 2:29 PM Jon has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1097 of 1234 (747687)
01-18-2015 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1096 by Jon
01-18-2015 2:12 PM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
Jar writes:
I was using your own wording for the sake of parallelism, obviously.
They're not my words - I said this:
Multiculturalism is simply accepting that people from different backgrounds - race, religion, langugae, economic development, education etc - have differring views on the world and, if we are to live together there has to be tolerance by both sides of those views.
If you think I'm 'guilty' of that, then I guess I am, but I suspect that you think that multiculturalism is bad and I don't. (Maybe like many Americans use liberalism as a swear word - in the UK it's a longstanding respectable position.) I do however, think that some parts of it are broken and we need to do something about it.
You seem entirely to agree that it is misplaced to hold cultural sensitivities above individual liberties or relax our enforcement of liberating laws at the behest of cultures that have no respect for such liberties. Yet you appear equally unwilling to apply the label Multiculturalism to these things
But Multiculturalism is exactly what it is. It's time to start calling it for what it is.
I have no problem calling it multiculturalism, because that's what it is. But you want to say that it is all bad and it quite obviously is not. These cultures have rubbed along together for many years without these problems and have added greatly to our society. There have been some mistakes with it though and we need to come to terms with them and work out ways of resolving them because there is no going back.
Then where's the beef?
??? Because people are being murdered perhaps? And we don't, as yet, have a way of stopping it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1096 by Jon, posted 01-18-2015 2:12 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1099 by Jon, posted 01-18-2015 2:34 PM Tangle has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 1098 of 1234 (747688)
01-18-2015 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1094 by NoNukes
01-18-2015 1:39 PM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
In fact, the distinction between Western and Anglo-Saxon is more revealing of exactly how much this country has changed. Clearly the beginnings of our country were dominated by British influence. But we are not all that much like England anymore.
No. We're like France, and Denmark, and Germany, and... We are heirs to the great Western tradition whose development has been the establishment and recognition of individual liberties, self-government, and personal freedoms. The way these things manifest in the different countries represents only a superficial distinction and does not detract from their universality not only in the West but in the world as a whole.
The distinction between Western and Anglo-Saxon is meaningfully nonexistent.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1094 by NoNukes, posted 01-18-2015 1:39 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1100 by NoNukes, posted 01-18-2015 2:40 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1099 of 1234 (747689)
01-18-2015 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1097 by Tangle
01-18-2015 2:29 PM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
A question I have posed elsewhere in this thread is: How do we get the 'good' without the bad?
Edit:
And we can add to that: What is the 'good' and is it worth taking the bad if we cannot separate them?
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1097 by Tangle, posted 01-18-2015 2:29 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1103 by Tangle, posted 01-18-2015 3:10 PM Jon has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1100 of 1234 (747690)
01-18-2015 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1098 by Jon
01-18-2015 2:30 PM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
The distinction between Western and Anglo-Saxon is meaningfully nonexistent
Right. Except that neither of those terms as you've defined them describe the culture here in the US. What you are doing instead is simply taking the status quo, however you define it, and saying that you don't want to tolerate more changes.
The inclusion of blacks, hispanics, asians in this country has come with some adapting by the immigrants or freed people and some adapting by the host. I really don't care much that you don't like that. I doubt you'll be able to convince anyone except the most reactionary wing that things should have been different.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1098 by Jon, posted 01-18-2015 2:30 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1101 by Jon, posted 01-18-2015 2:46 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1101 of 1234 (747691)
01-18-2015 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1100 by NoNukes
01-18-2015 2:40 PM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
What you are doing instead is simply taking the status quo, however you define it, and saying that you don't want to tolerate more changes.
No I am not. And if you read the thread you will see I have identified plenty of room for improvement in Western (which includes American) cultural practices.
I really don't care much that you don't like that.
I have no problem with it.
I doubt you'll be able to convince anyone except the most reactionary wing that things should have been different.
I doubt I'll want to.
Bring yourself up to speed on my position, and then maybe we can have a meaningful discussion instead of you simply asserting lies about me.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1100 by NoNukes, posted 01-18-2015 2:40 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1102 of 1234 (747694)
01-18-2015 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1086 by jar
01-18-2015 10:43 AM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
I'm sorry but could you possibly give us an example of a law or value that foreign cultures should adapt to but do not?
Freedom of religion.
Freedom of speech.
Women's rights.
They lie low as long as there are more of us than them, but you can tell from how they are rioting in Niger against Charlie Hebdo's right to criticize Mohammed that Islam is not happy with that particular freedom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1086 by jar, posted 01-18-2015 10:43 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1110 by jar, posted 01-18-2015 8:39 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1103 of 1234 (747695)
01-18-2015 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1099 by Jon
01-18-2015 2:34 PM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
jon writes:
A question I have posed elsewhere in this thread is: How do we get the 'good' without the bad?
We educate more, require learning our language and laws, do not put up with the breaking of laws for cultural reasons, inspect schools to see that they're following the curriculum etc etc
And we can add to that: What is the 'good' and is it worth taking the bad if we cannot separate them?
The good is cuisine, an appreciation and understanding of difference leading in the long term to political resolution of territorial disputes, the importation of talent and a workforce - our public transport system wouldn't have run without West India immigration after the war and our NHS would collapse without Asian - and other nationalities - doctors and nurses.
And where do you think the USA would be without immigration of its huddled masses?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1099 by Jon, posted 01-18-2015 2:34 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1105 by Jon, posted 01-18-2015 4:41 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1104 of 1234 (747696)
01-18-2015 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1087 by NoNukes
01-18-2015 11:01 AM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
Spoken like a true Multiculturalist, complete with all the de rigueur PC accusations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1087 by NoNukes, posted 01-18-2015 11:01 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1105 of 1234 (747697)
01-18-2015 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1103 by Tangle
01-18-2015 3:10 PM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
We educate more, require learning our language and laws, do not put up with the breaking of laws for cultural reasons, inspect schools to see that they're following the curriculum etc etc
Maybe. But it might just be a pipe dream to think we can educate people away from backwardness and extremism.
Most of what you suggest I have also suggested. But they are all impossible to implement while Multiculturalism rules the day.
The good is cuisine, an appreciation and understanding of difference leading in the long term to political resolution of territorial disputes, the importation of talent and a workforce - our public transport system wouldn't have run without West India immigration after the war and our NHS would collapse without Asian - and other nationalities - doctors and nurses.
And where do you think the USA would be without immigration of its huddled masses?
Well those might be some benefits of different cultures, but I don't see how any of those things are dependent on Multiculturalism the ideology as opposed to simply Multiculturalism the reality.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.
Edited by Jon, : YouTube Link

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1103 by Tangle, posted 01-18-2015 3:10 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1106 by Tangle, posted 01-18-2015 5:16 PM Jon has replied
 Message 1107 by Tangle, posted 01-18-2015 6:29 PM Jon has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1106 of 1234 (747699)
01-18-2015 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1105 by Jon
01-18-2015 4:41 PM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
Jon writes:
Most of what you suggest I have also suggested. But they are all impossible to implement while Multiculturalism rules the day.
You're still unnecessarily hung up on the word 'multiculuralism' as though it it was some sort of talisman for evil - it's not, it's a description of an idea which has a large number of aspects, only a few of which are problematic.
There's no way out of this, we have to work ways of living together it's the only way forward.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1105 by Jon, posted 01-18-2015 4:41 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1108 by Jon, posted 01-18-2015 6:31 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1107 of 1234 (747708)
01-18-2015 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1105 by Jon
01-18-2015 4:41 PM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
Jon writes:
Maybe. But it might just be a pipe dream to think we can educate people away from backwardness and extremism.
Of course we can,mwe did it with Christianity. You're just expecting it to happen tomorrow and of course it won't.
I've just watched the Sam Harris link and of course I agree with much of it - as I've posted what he has to say myself - but this idea that liberals believe what he says they believe is just silly. Or, more likely, the USshas its own definition of what a liberal is, like it seems to have it's own definition of what multiculturalism is - ie both are extreme and bad.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1105 by Jon, posted 01-18-2015 4:41 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1109 by Jon, posted 01-18-2015 7:06 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 1113 by Faith, posted 01-19-2015 10:47 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1108 of 1234 (747709)
01-18-2015 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1106 by Tangle
01-18-2015 5:16 PM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
You're still unnecessarily hung up on the word 'multiculuralism'
I'm not hung up on the word. I'm hung up on the mentality of placating barbarians who despise the very ideologies that bring them to the West to begin with.
it's a description of an idea which has a large number of aspects, only a few of which are problematic.
We aren't talking about the description of Multiculturalism. Really; we're over 1000 posts in. I can't believe I am still telling people this.
There's no way out of this, we have to work ways of living together it's the only way forward.
I think we all know that. Do you have any suggestions on how we might do that? Do you have any responses to anything else I posted in my replies to you?
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1106 by Tangle, posted 01-18-2015 5:16 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1111 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 3:41 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1109 of 1234 (747711)
01-18-2015 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1107 by Tangle
01-18-2015 6:29 PM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
Of course we can,mwe did it with Christianity. You're just expecting it to happen tomorrow and of course it won't.
Since lives are at stake, we should take whichever path makes it happen the quickest.
What happens when those who are backward take too long to turn around?
Slavery and segregation were not ended in the south by building more schools.
Or, more likely, the USshas its own definition of what a liberal is, like it seems to have it's own definition of what multiculturalism is - ie both are extreme and bad.
The U.S. has a definition of 'liberal' that isn't necessarily bad, but that does typically associate it with Multiculturalism and Islam-pandering. That is why U.S. liberals speaking against Multiculturalism and Islam is seen as an 'intrigue'and hence get attention and stir up dust.
And, of course, as with most labels, 'liberal' is, indeed, often thrown about with the intent of being derisive.
But discussing whether a position is liberal or not really isn't the intention of this thread. I think that anyone can participate meaningfully, as participation by folks such as me (who identifies with neither label) and Faith (who probably identifies with the conservative label) and ringo (who would probably be called a liberal) demonstrates.
Though I can agree the differences between U.S. liberals and U.K. liberals might be an interesting topic; it's not the topic of this thread and entirely irrelevant.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1107 by Tangle, posted 01-18-2015 6:29 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1114 by ringo, posted 01-19-2015 10:49 AM Jon has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1110 of 1234 (747720)
01-18-2015 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1102 by Faith
01-18-2015 3:01 PM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
Faith writes:
Freedom of religion.
Freedom of speech.
Women's rights.
They lie low as long as there are more of us than them, but you can tell from how they are rioting in Niger against Charlie Hebdo's right to criticize Mohammed that Islam is not happy with that particular freedom.
Faith, can you give us an example that is not just made up in your paranoia?
Riots in Niger are not immigrants in the US.
The only example so far of anyone denying freedom of religion and freedom of speech has been you or have you forgotten posting that it was right to deny Roman Catholics the right to hold office in the US and that you wished you could censor EvC off the internet?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1102 by Faith, posted 01-18-2015 3:01 PM Faith has not replied

  
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