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Author Topic:   Multiculturalism
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1111 of 1234 (747742)
01-19-2015 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1108 by Jon
01-18-2015 6:31 PM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
Jon writes:
I think we all know that. Do you have any suggestions on how we might do that? Do you have any responses to anything else I posted in my replies to you.
I have nothing more than what I have already said. What is your answer?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1108 by Jon, posted 01-18-2015 6:31 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1112 by Jon, posted 01-19-2015 10:18 AM Tangle has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1112 of 1234 (747757)
01-19-2015 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1111 by Tangle
01-19-2015 3:41 AM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
I gave my answer in Message 1109:
quote:
Jon in Message 1109:
Since lives are at stake, we should take whichever path makes it happen the quickest.
What happens when those who are backward take too long to turn around?
Slavery and segregation were not ended in the south by building more schools.
Your solutions sound good, but they have been so far ineffective.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1111 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 3:41 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1121 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 1:02 PM Jon has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1113 of 1234 (747759)
01-19-2015 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1107 by Tangle
01-18-2015 6:29 PM


"We" did what?
Jon writes:
Maybe. But it might just be a pipe dream to think we can educate people away from backwardness and extremism.
Of course we can,mwe did it with Christianity.
Just wondering. "We did it," you say,
"We?" Please, who is this "we,"
And what did this "we" do?
"With Christianity?"
"Educate away from backwardness and extremism?"
Please describe this backwardness and extremism.
Educate? I'm quite sure "you" did no such thing, but I'm afraid I have no idea what you THINK you did. Please enlighten.
Is there some historical event, perchance, that you can point to, that you think accomplished this educating of Christianity?
I can hardly wait for your answer.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1107 by Tangle, posted 01-18-2015 6:29 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1115 by jar, posted 01-19-2015 11:08 AM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1114 of 1234 (747760)
01-19-2015 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1109 by Jon
01-18-2015 7:06 PM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
Jon writes:
Slavery and segregation were not ended in the south by building more schools.
So are you suggesting civil war or carpet-bagging?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1109 by Jon, posted 01-18-2015 7:06 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1118 by Jon, posted 01-19-2015 11:34 AM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1115 of 1234 (747762)
01-19-2015 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1113 by Faith
01-19-2015 10:47 AM


Re: "We" did what?
There have been several methods of educating Christians. In the US one big and important method was through a Constitution that has so far prevented Christians imposing most of their laws on others.
A second very successful path has been through science and education which showed conclusively that many events such as the Biblical Floods or Exodus or Conquest of Canaan simply never happened and that the Earth and Universe are billions of years old and that humans are simply another of the Primates and that evolution is a fact with the Theory of Evolution explaining what is seen.
Of those two paths the former may be the more important but the later, when combined with ridicule, may have the longest lasting effects.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1113 by Faith, posted 01-19-2015 10:47 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1116 by Faith, posted 01-19-2015 11:13 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1116 of 1234 (747763)
01-19-2015 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1115 by jar
01-19-2015 11:08 AM


Re: "We" did what?
The Christians I consider to be Christianity as such, a very large bunch of us, don't believe in Evolution. Try again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1115 by jar, posted 01-19-2015 11:08 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1117 by jar, posted 01-19-2015 11:26 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 1117 of 1234 (747764)
01-19-2015 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1116 by Faith
01-19-2015 11:13 AM


Re: "We" did what?
Yes, we know that you are totally out of touch with reality, but fortunately not all are willfully ignorant. In fact education has worked so well that it has been necessary for those like yourself to create avoidance schools to try to prevent children from exposure to reality. The problem is though that reality is everywhere out there and so as the children come to realize that their parents, teachers, pastors and even friends have just been lying to them they abandon Christianity.
So education works.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1116 by Faith, posted 01-19-2015 11:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1120 by Faith, posted 01-19-2015 12:04 PM jar has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1118 of 1234 (747765)
01-19-2015 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1114 by ringo
01-19-2015 10:49 AM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
So are you suggesting civil war or carpet-bagging?
I'm suggesting that we might need to do more than just bring the horse to water.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1114 by ringo, posted 01-19-2015 10:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1119 by ringo, posted 01-19-2015 11:40 AM Jon has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1119 of 1234 (747767)
01-19-2015 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1118 by Jon
01-19-2015 11:34 AM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
Jon writes:
I'm suggesting that we might need to do more than just bring the horse to water.
And I'm asking what "more" is. Holding his head under water?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1118 by Jon, posted 01-19-2015 11:34 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1123 by Jon, posted 01-19-2015 1:44 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1120 of 1234 (747768)
01-19-2015 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1117 by jar
01-19-2015 11:26 AM


Re: "We" did what?
Well, since rejection of evolution doesn't blow people up and that seemed to be Tangle's main focus, I'd like to hear HIS answer to my questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1117 by jar, posted 01-19-2015 11:26 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1122 by jar, posted 01-19-2015 1:36 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1121 of 1234 (747774)
01-19-2015 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1112 by Jon
01-19-2015 10:18 AM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
Jon writes:
I gave my answer in Message 1109:
But you neglected to include a solution.
Your solutions sound good, but they have been so far ineffective.
I think they have been very effective, the vast majority of Muslims in Western societies now share our values - that is why those that don't are causing a problem. They are concerned that their primitive version is getting diluted.
But, in any case, would you expect such a change to happen overnight? The western enlightenment ooh centuries.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1112 by Jon, posted 01-19-2015 10:18 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1124 by Jon, posted 01-19-2015 6:27 PM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1122 of 1234 (747777)
01-19-2015 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1120 by Faith
01-19-2015 12:04 PM


Re: "We" did what?
But it is a great example of taming Christianity and Fundy Christian have and do blow folk up.
As I said back in Message 1115 there have been two major paths. Education has lead the majority of Christians towards a far more progressive and secular approach to society or even abandoning Christianity in favor of a secular humanist path. That cuts down on the fundy crazies.
But there is also the Constitution in the US which than God has limited the ability of Christians to impose their laws on the rest of society and has allowed active legal sanctioning of the mainly Christian hate groups like the KKK and American Nazi parties. It has also allowed prosecution of those who do bomb (and there have been many of those in my lifetime right here in the US).

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1120 by Faith, posted 01-19-2015 12:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1123 of 1234 (747778)
01-19-2015 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1119 by ringo
01-19-2015 11:40 AM


Re: Multiculturalists in High Places
And I'm asking what "more" is.
That's the same question I've been asking since I began the thread.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1119 by ringo, posted 01-19-2015 11:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1126 by ringo, posted 01-20-2015 10:50 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1124 of 1234 (747800)
01-19-2015 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1121 by Tangle
01-19-2015 1:02 PM


Vast Majority or Paltry Sum?
I think they have been very effective, the vast majority of Muslims in Western societies now share our values - that is why those that don't are causing a problem. They are concerned that their primitive version is getting diluted.
They do?
quote:
"Poll Reveals 40pc of Muslims Want Sharia Law in UK" from Telegraph:
Islamic law is used in large parts of the Middle East, including Iran and Saudi Arabia, and is enforced by religious police. Special courts can hand down harsh punishments which can include stoning and amputation.
Forty per cent of the British Muslims surveyed said they backed introducing sharia in parts of Britain, while 41 per cent opposed it.
Notice that not even a technical majority opposed it (which would have been the Western position). The same goes for a poll in 2005 which found that 37% of British Muslims felt British Jews were "legitimate targets as part of the ongoing struggle for justice in the Middle East" ("Muslim Poll" (PDF) from Populus p. 22). Only 35% thought Jews weren't "legitimate targets".
Zero percent of British Muslims found homosexuality to be morally acceptable:
quote:
"Muslims in Britain Have Zero Tolerance of Homosexuality, Says Poll" from the Guardian:
The most dramatic contrast was found in attitudes towards homosexuality. None of the 500 British Muslims interviewed believed that homosexual acts were morally acceptable. 1,001 non-Muslim Britons were interviewed.
That percentage isn't even close to the Western views of the rest of the British population:
quote:
"Revolution in Attitudes to Homosexuality is Biggest Change in Generation" from The Telegraph:
But, according to the latest British Social Attitudes survey, only one in five people now disapproves of gay or lesbian relationships in principle.
And what effect does education have on this?
Well, apparently exactly the opposite effect you think it does. To add some meat to Sam Harris' mention that extremism increases as affluence increases, 5% of British Muslims in general said they would not report someone they knew was planning to carry out a terror attack ("UK Muslims Back Blair's Bid to Throw Out Fanatics" from The Scotsman) while 10% of British Muslim students said they would not tell ("The Voice of Muslim Students" (PDF — click 'download') from FOSIS p. 36).
Where are these vast majorities? Where has education been very effective in assimilating Muslims into Western culture?
Your emotions aren't supported by the facts.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1121 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 1:02 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1125 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2015 4:19 AM Jon has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1125 of 1234 (747818)
01-20-2015 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1124 by Jon
01-19-2015 6:27 PM


Re: Vast Majority or Paltry Sum?
It's not really necessary to cherry pick so outrageously. Those same polls also said that 99% thought the bombers in the UK were wrong and 91% feel loyal to Britain.
The Sharia law stuff is equally outrageous, most Muslims actually use their laws in the UK now, quite legally to solve disputes between neighbours and inside families - this does not in anyway suggest that they support stoning, flogging and beheading for trivial 'offences'.
If you polled 500 evangelical Christians you would find all 500 of them also believe homosexual acts to be immoral - it's a primitive bloody religion what do you expect?
We know that many Muslims in Western democracies are conflicted and that some of them have values which most of the rest of the UK find abhorrent but the overwhelming majority comply with our laws and are adjusting. We need to work harder to make the process of integration work faster.
I'm still waiting for your solution.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1124 by Jon, posted 01-19-2015 6:27 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1127 by Jon, posted 01-20-2015 9:11 PM Tangle has replied

  
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