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Author Topic:   If evolution is true, where did flying creatures come from?
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 181 of 225 (757675)
05-12-2015 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Faith
05-12-2015 12:50 AM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
Well, fuel is not a very apt analogy for what is really going on. This is a dynamic thing that REQUIRES the loss of fuel to occur at all. Adding fuel will just keep it from occurring.

No. But feel free to expand on this.

Oh well. Maybe it will come to you in a dream.

Not even in my wildest dreams have I seen anything that would patch up the holes in your argument.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 05-12-2015 12:50 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12969
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 182 of 225 (757676)
05-12-2015 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Faith
05-12-2015 12:50 AM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
quote:

Well, fuel is not a very apt analogy for what is really going on. This is a dynamic thing that REQUIRES the loss of fuel to occur at all. Adding fuel will just keep it from occurring.

An assertion you have failed to support many times. Have you finally come up with an argument for it that makes sense ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 05-12-2015 12:50 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Denisova
Member (Idle past 714 days)
Posts: 96
From: The Earth Clod....
Joined: 05-10-2015


Message 183 of 225 (757679)
05-12-2015 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
05-11-2015 9:08 PM


Re: Traits governed by more than one gene
This post has been moved to the thread " Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity".

Edited by Denisova, : Due to being off topic here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 9:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Admin, posted 05-12-2015 8:29 AM Denisova has responded

  
Denisova
Member (Idle past 714 days)
Posts: 96
From: The Earth Clod....
Joined: 05-10-2015


Message 184 of 225 (757680)
05-12-2015 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Faith
05-11-2015 7:22 PM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
You apparently missed the word "INBREEDING" which refers to what was going on in each of the separate populations. You DO know the difference between "inbreeding" and "interbreeding," right?

Sorry, misread it for "interbreeding".
My bad, I apologize.

I am not rude, nowhere in my posts.
Straightforward, yes, sure, but not rude.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 7:22 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12523
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 185 of 225 (757681)
05-12-2015 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Denisova
05-11-2015 2:53 PM


Moderator Clarification
Hi Denisova,

First, I'd like to address the general thread and say that I've been meaning to catch up with this thread but have lacked the time, but I'm doing it now. Initially it looks like the current discussion is off-topic, but I'll wait until I finish reading before making a final determination.

Denisova writes:

As soon as speciation happened, we will now have 2 species with different and separated genomes. And evidently each genome inevitably will be a *subset* of the original combined genome of the ancestral species.

I'd like to make sure that your meaning is clear for everyone. Here you say that the genome of each new species will be a subset of the parent species, but your previous paragraph talks about genetic change (alleles and genes will be both created and lost in each subpopulation), so in the end each subpopulation's genome will actually be both a subset and a superset of the parent species. Is that what you meant?


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Denisova, posted 05-12-2015 9:54 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply
 Message 205 by RAZD, posted 05-12-2015 12:19 PM Admin has responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12523
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 186 of 225 (757682)
05-12-2015 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Faith
05-11-2015 6:04 PM


Re: Traits governed by more than one gene
An answer to this issue might be helpful to everyone:

Faith writes:

I wish I had a way to keep track of my own posts.

If you look in the left hand column of any message you'll see a link that says "<MemberName> Posts Ony". For instance, in the left hand column of your message I see the link Faith Posts Ony. If you click on that link then only your messages in that thread will be displayed with that message at the top of the webpage. This makes it possible to quickly browsing through your messages (or anyone's messages) to find what you want.

Also, if you click on the mood icon of any message (e.g., ) you'll get an index to all the messages of the thread showing who's replied to which messages. I only find this occasionally useful.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 6:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(4)
Message 187 of 225 (757684)
05-12-2015 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Faith
05-12-2015 12:47 AM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
I'm not at all surprised if people can't get it and think they see problems in it, because everybody has been indoctrinated in the completely opposite point of view.

So back to simple denial again, is it.

Yes, and if new traits are forming slowly within a population over time that's evolution too, and that too requires the loss of genetic diversity. It's just easier to grasp what's happening where subspecies are actively being formed, to see how the reduction of genetic diversity is required to bring about new traits.

You claim that new genetic traits in a population equals a loss of diversity in the population? That is of course impossible. Since only some of the population is affected, when new traits show up the population via mutation, the population becomes more genetically diverse. By any definition.

This is why the principle of drift never appears or gets discussed in your posts. It is a deal breaker that utterly wrecks your position. Most genetic variation does not lead immediately to speciation because it is either neutral or deleterious. But the neutral mutations may later lead to speciation if those changes become beneficial in a new environment. At that point, however, the original species has grown in diversity beyond its beginnings. And even the sub species may well be more diverse than was the original species at its forming (a prior speciation eent) although it must be less diverse than the entire species at the time of the latest speciation event.

Your position must be that drift does not happen.

And of course since evolution happens to populations and not individuals, it is the population diversity that matters. It isn't that nobody understands your position or that they've been indoctrinated against your position. It is that your position does not make sense. Even you cannot even keep straight what you've said.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 05-12-2015 12:47 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Admin
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Posts: 12523
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 188 of 225 (757685)
05-12-2015 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Denisova
05-11-2015 7:01 PM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
Denisova writes:

Though you won't get those distinctly different genomes until after there has been a period of inbreeding of the populations in reproductive isolation from each other.

Interbreeding between populations in reproductive isolation is an oxymoron.

I think you misread Faith's sentence. She said "inbreeding", not "interbreeding".

IN OTHER WORDS, in the sub-genomes there is ANY reduction in genetic variance.

Not sure what you mean here. Maybe, "In other words, in the sub-genomes there is *not* ANY reduction in genetic variance." If so then it isn't clear why this must be true. Clearly it is one possible outcome, but if it's actually the only possible outcome then it isn't clear why.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Denisova, posted 05-11-2015 7:01 PM Denisova has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Denisova, posted 05-12-2015 8:00 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 189 of 225 (757686)
05-12-2015 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Faith
05-11-2015 9:53 PM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
Could I ask you first of all why "genetic change" is needed

Such a thing is needed as a source of variation because without it, evolution would stall out at some point. Your question is irrelevant, really, because genetic change does occur regardless of whether it is needed.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 9:53 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12523
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 190 of 225 (757687)
05-12-2015 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Faith
05-11-2015 7:22 PM


Moderator On Duty
Faith writes:

Just what I need, another new poster who is rude and ready to find fault without thinking for even half a second.

You're a participant, I'm a moderator, let's keep the roles separate, okay?

Speaking to everyone now, there are many long timers here who are by now very familiar with the Forum Guidelines and with moderation policies and habits. To those who now make an effort to insure their messages conform to these, thank you. To those who even after all these years are still committing the same infractions, well, what can be said?


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 7:22 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Denisova
Member (Idle past 714 days)
Posts: 96
From: The Earth Clod....
Joined: 05-10-2015


Message 191 of 225 (757688)
05-12-2015 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Faith
05-11-2015 9:53 PM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
This post has been moved to the thread "Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity".

Edited by Denisova, : Corrected editing codes.

Edited by Denisova, : And another one...

Edited by Denisova, : Typo corrected. Pfffff!!!

Edited by Denisova, : For being off topic here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 9:53 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Admin, posted 05-12-2015 8:49 AM Denisova has responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12523
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 192 of 225 (757689)
05-12-2015 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
05-11-2015 9:08 PM


Re: Traits governed by more than one gene
Faith writes:

THAN, not "then." [THAN the current genomes of extant humans."] This is a HORRIBLE grammatical error people are making these days.

Many people don't realize the negative affect bad grammar has on their writing. They don't realize how much it effects understanding. Its a very big problem, and it's impact is huge. Their is only so much one can take when people don't realize how bad they're writing is when there composing messages. Its too bad when this happens, and it happens to often. Everyone should say to themselves, "Your going to have to do better and get you're act together."


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 9:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12523
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 193 of 225 (757690)
05-12-2015 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
05-11-2015 9:08 PM


Re: Traits governed by more than one gene
Faith writes:

It's a reasoned guess that fits the biblical facts...
...
The exact opposite wouldn't fit either the observed facts or the biblical facts.

Really? In a science thread? Again?

May I recommend that you cut to the chase and present your argument for this now, because I can tell I'm going to have very little patience with your basic approach and especially your attitude and indeed probably your whole interpretive system. Try it and see but I don't hold out much hope for this discussion. I was happy that you stuck to the terms in your first post about subpopulations since that's what I focus on. Too bad it's all gone downhill since then.

But FIRST the evidence for your claim please.

You've got all you're getting, my good reasoning. If you object then go argue with someone else.

I'll deal with the moderation issues, you deal with the evidence issues.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 9:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Denisova
Member (Idle past 714 days)
Posts: 96
From: The Earth Clod....
Joined: 05-10-2015


Message 194 of 225 (757691)
05-12-2015 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Admin
05-12-2015 7:07 AM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
I think you misread Faith's sentence. She said "inbreeding", not "interbreeding".

Point taken!
Indeed a misreading.
Already acknowledged to Faith.

IN OTHER WORDS, in the sub-genomes there is ANY reduction in genetic variance.
Not sure what you mean here. Maybe, "In other words, in the sub-genomes there is *not* ANY reduction in genetic variance." If so then it isn't clear why this must be true. Clearly it is one possible outcome, but if it's actually the only possible outcome then it isn't clear why.

Well.... I happen to write and communicate in 3 languages on a regular basis, sometimes even on the very same day, Dutch, German and English, which happen to be sister-languages as well.

It's often very funny translating a word between sister-languages. You think "English is so similar to Dutch", hence "this must be the proper translation". The most famous was by the Dutch foreign minister, Mr. Joseph Luns, meeting Kennedy. Kennedy asked politely for his hobbies, Luns answering "I fuck horses" - the Dutch "Ik fok" means "I breed" and "Ik fok" is indeed the linguistic cognate for English "I fuck" - only in a slight different meaning. It is also said that Kennedy stood surprised and asked "Pardon?". Luns reposted "Yes, paarden!!" ("paarden" = "horses").

Well, the correct rendition of my sayings would be:
"IN OTHER WORDS, in the sub-genomes there MIGHT BE reduction in genetic variance" (according to and ensuing Faith's argumentation).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Admin, posted 05-12-2015 7:07 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12523
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 195 of 225 (757692)
05-12-2015 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
05-11-2015 11:59 PM


Re: Evolution of What3ever
Faith writes:

As for the math, it's meaningless to me. You have to use English.

If you're referring to this:

Ga = X1-X2-X3-X4-X5-X6-X7-X8-X9-X10-X11-X12-X13-X14-X15-X16

It isn't math. It's a list of genes in a hypothetical genome. If it helps, think of it as a set of genes. So this would be saying that Genome A designated "Ga" consists of the list of genes in the set:

Ga = (X1, X2, X3, X4, X5, X6, X7, X8, X9, X10, X11, X12, X13, X14, X15, X16)

If I've correctly identified the misunderstanding then it should be possible for you to reread Denisova's Message 163 and understand what he's saying this time.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 05-11-2015 11:59 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
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