Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 107 (8806 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-17-2017 10:20 PM
334 online now:
Faith, LamarkNewAge, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), NoNukes (4 members, 330 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 824,527 Year: 29,133/21,208 Month: 1,199/1,847 Week: 122/452 Day: 122/115 Hour: 4/3

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
2Next
Author Topic:   Backwards debate: the flood
Bookworm7890
Junior Member (Idle past 1086 days)
Posts: 13
From: mississippi
Joined: 09-25-2014


Message 1 of 26 (737631)
09-27-2014 12:51 PM


Backwards debate is my idea that instead of arguing your own belief, you argue the opposite. Creationists will support evolution, and evolutionists will support creation. I hope that this will allow us to understand each other better! I got this idea after seeing that one person commented "creationism is stupid"

Rules:
1 argue for the other side. No exeptions!
2 no saying "i cant find any evidence for the other side"
3 Actually research and look for valid evidence for the other side!
Did the flood of the bible happen? What evidence is there for or against the world being flooded with water? Are you ready?
Let the games.... Begin!

Edited by Bookworm7890, : No reason given.

Edited by Bookworm7890, : Made topic more specific


"Science isn't about why, it's about why not! -cave johhnson, (Fictional character.)
Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the first one.- albert einstein.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 09-27-2014 1:55 PM Bookworm7890 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 16 by ProtoTypical, posted 09-28-2014 7:46 AM Bookworm7890 has not yet responded
 Message 19 by Pressie, posted 09-29-2014 12:51 AM Bookworm7890 has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12536
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 2 of 26 (737632)
09-27-2014 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Bookworm7890
09-27-2014 12:51 PM


Hi Bookworm,

This website has many forums, each devoted to a major topic area of the creation/evolution debate (there's also a miscellaneous forum). Threads have a specific topic within one of the major topic areas. Your idea of a 'trading places" debate is fine, but you need an actual topic.

Edited by Admin, : Typo.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Bookworm7890, posted 09-27-2014 12:51 PM Bookworm7890 has acknowledged this reply

    
Bookworm7890
Junior Member (Idle past 1086 days)
Posts: 13
From: mississippi
Joined: 09-25-2014


Message 3 of 26 (737633)
09-27-2014 4:19 PM


i fixed it!
I added a topic

"Science isn't about why, it's about why not! -cave johhnson, (Fictional character.)
Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the first one.- albert einstein.

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Admin, posted 09-27-2014 8:09 PM Bookworm7890 has responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12536
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 4 of 26 (737634)
09-27-2014 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Bookworm7890
09-27-2014 4:19 PM


Re: i fixed it!
Hi Bookworm,

I understood from the title that you'd like to discuss the flood, but what specifically about the flood? If you glance through the Geology and the Great Flood forum you can see how many aspects of the flood there are to discuss. Recent threads discussed how the geologic column forms, Walther's Law, the ark, the Grand Canyon, where the flood waters came from and where they went, how limestone layers form, sea floor formation, plate tectonics, fossil distribution, ice ages, etc. etc. etc.

If I could make a suggestion for a flood topic, how about presenting and discussing the physical evidence that the Biblical flood ever happened, meaning a global flood around 4500 years ago.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Bookworm7890, posted 09-27-2014 4:19 PM Bookworm7890 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Bookworm7890, posted 09-27-2014 9:39 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
Bookworm7890
Junior Member (Idle past 1086 days)
Posts: 13
From: mississippi
Joined: 09-25-2014


Message 5 of 26 (737635)
09-27-2014 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Admin
09-27-2014 8:09 PM


Re: i fixed it!
Thanks for the suggestion! I have edited the post as you requested. Appreciate the help!

"Science isn't about why, it's about why not! -cave johhnson, (Fictional character.)
Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the first one.- albert einstein.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Admin, posted 09-27-2014 8:09 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12536
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 6 of 26 (737637)
09-27-2014 9:46 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Backwards debate: the flood thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 7 of 26 (737638)
09-27-2014 9:55 PM


Evidence supporting one (or more) great floods ca. 4350 years ago:

The bible claims it.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16343
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 8 of 26 (737639)
09-27-2014 10:00 PM


The Biblical Flood Really Happened
The Biblical flood was very real, but it wasn't global, it didn't begin 4500 years ago, and it lasted far more than a year, right up to the current day. Around 10,000 years ago the Mediterranean breached the barrier separating it from the Black Sea, which was then half its current size. Water poured into the Black Sea over an immense waterfall for a century, eventually filling the Black Sea to current levels. The displaced civilizations scattered, some to the Levant where memories of the ancient flood became legends and myths that were one day recorded in the Bible.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Bookworm7890, posted 09-27-2014 10:23 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 21 by Astrophile, posted 09-30-2014 4:11 PM Percy has responded

    
Bookworm7890
Junior Member (Idle past 1086 days)
Posts: 13
From: mississippi
Joined: 09-25-2014


Message 9 of 26 (737641)
09-27-2014 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Percy
09-27-2014 10:00 PM


Re: The Biblical Flood Really Happened
Ok i notice that you begin by saying that the biblical flood happened, but then go on to say that it was very different from what we believe, But still, you actually did research instead of saying " the bible says so," and to coyote, yes the bible says so, but i said i wanted you to do some research on the subject, i am not complaining, i am attempting to make the rules a little more clear, all in all, i appreciate your willingness to contribute. And to percy, great job! Research, actually TRYING to prove the other sides' point, this is what i wanted from this thread. It takes very little effort to find proof in what you believe, but it takes a lot more effort to find evidence against what you believe, now coyote, if you are still reading this, please try harder, i am glad you chose to participate, but you are stereotyping christians as people who just say " the bible says you are wrong! So there!" We have scientists too! We have brains too! We are people too! Please dont get angry at me for this.

P.S. actually coyote, you did state the reason that we believe in the flood, and that is, in a way, a good effort, i just put this at the end because other people may just say the same thing, and we would get nowhere.

Edited by Bookworm7890, : Typographical error


"Science isn't about why, it's about why not! -cave johhnson, (Fictional character.)
Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the first one.- albert einstein.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 09-27-2014 10:00 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Coyote, posted 09-27-2014 10:37 PM Bookworm7890 has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 10 of 26 (737645)
09-27-2014 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Bookworm7890
09-27-2014 10:23 PM


Re: The Biblical Flood Really Happened
I have debated those who believe in a global flood ca. 4,350 years ago for many years now on the web.

I have yet to find any argument that they provide that goes beyond "the bible says so" that is not easily refuted.

I have been doing archaeology for over 40 years, and have examined the time period ca. 4,350 years ago in probably close to 100 different sites. I have been able to find mtDNA evidence of continuity from over 5,200 years ago to the present without the discontinuity which would be necessary if there had been a global flood ca. 4,350 years ago. I also see continuity of culture, technology, and sedimentation without the disruption that a global flood would have caused.

So, if my task is to argue that the flood did occur, I must fall back on "the bible says so" as that is the only thing that supports the idea of a global flood at that time period.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Bookworm7890, posted 09-27-2014 10:23 PM Bookworm7890 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Bookworm7890, posted 09-27-2014 10:43 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Bookworm7890
Junior Member (Idle past 1086 days)
Posts: 13
From: mississippi
Joined: 09-25-2014


Message 11 of 26 (737648)
09-27-2014 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Coyote
09-27-2014 10:37 PM


Re: The Biblical Flood Really Happened
Well i guess it is my turn then, to begin i will also start with an overused but valid question, where did the water all go? Where would enough water to cover the earth even come from? Maybe christians just stole from the greek flood story!

"Science isn't about why, it's about why not! -cave johhnson, (Fictional character.)
Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the first one.- albert einstein.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Coyote, posted 09-27-2014 10:37 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Bookworm7890, posted 09-27-2014 10:45 PM Bookworm7890 has not yet responded
 Message 14 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-28-2014 12:23 AM Bookworm7890 has not yet responded
 Message 15 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-28-2014 3:27 AM Bookworm7890 has not yet responded
 Message 17 by herebedragons, posted 09-28-2014 8:58 AM Bookworm7890 has not yet responded
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 09-28-2014 3:31 PM Bookworm7890 has not yet responded
 Message 23 by RAZD, posted 10-01-2014 9:00 AM Bookworm7890 has not yet responded

    
Bookworm7890
Junior Member (Idle past 1086 days)
Posts: 13
From: mississippi
Joined: 09-25-2014


Message 12 of 26 (737650)
09-27-2014 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Bookworm7890
09-27-2014 10:43 PM


Also
Please pm me links to websites with evidence for evolution, Against the flood, etc. I have a feeling that backwards debate will have other topic(s) eventually. Maybe when this one is dead.

"Science isn't about why, it's about why not! -cave johhnson, (Fictional character.)
Only two things are infinite, the universe, and human stupidity, and i am not sure about the first one.- albert einstein.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Bookworm7890, posted 09-27-2014 10:43 PM Bookworm7890 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by NoNukes, posted 09-27-2014 11:03 PM Bookworm7890 has not yet responded
 Message 20 by Pressie, posted 09-29-2014 5:15 AM Bookworm7890 has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10127
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 13 of 26 (737653)
09-27-2014 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Bookworm7890
09-27-2014 10:45 PM


Re: Also
Please pm me links to websites with evidence for evolution, Against the flood

There are some threads in this forum in which many of the participants have already taken their best shots. Perhaps you can crib from there.

As soon as you post a good argument, I'm just going to submit. You win!!


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Bookworm7890, posted 09-27-2014 10:45 PM Bookworm7890 has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15987
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 14 of 26 (737657)
09-28-2014 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Bookworm7890
09-27-2014 10:43 PM


Re: The Biblical Flood Really Happened
Well i guess it is my turn then, to begin i will also start with an overused but valid question, where did the water all go? Where would enough water to cover the earth even come from?

God can do magic, remember? Wait, I'm playing a creationist ... miracles. Not magic. Miracles. I'm sure there's a difference although if asked I'll be unable to say what it is. Anyway, since by hypothesis we're dealing with an entity that miracled the entire universe into being, he'd have no trouble making water appear and disappear.

Now at this point you may be wondering why, given that he has miraculous powers, he didn't do his genocide by just wishing everyone dead, instead of what seems to us to be a rather roundabout method of flooding the Earth but putting the animals in a boat, etc. But you must remember that according to the Bible, God's ways are not our ways, nor are his thoughts our thoughts. (See Isaiah 55.) He can do things that to us would seem stupid, evil, or psychotic, and that's just God being God, and us not understanding how awesome he is.

This means that whatever challenges you throw at me, I can invoke the existence of a being who can and who might do anything at all. I can hardly lose. If, for example, I wanted to defend the claim that the sky is green with pink spots, I am free to postulate that it is, but that for reasons known to himself, God is using his magical powers to make it look blue. By these means I can defend any position, no matter how contrary to reason, observation, the laws of physics, etc.

Meanwhile you poor saps of evolutionists have to take into account tedious questions like what is actually possible, and what the evidence shows. When will you guys admit that my way is easier?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Bookworm7890, posted 09-27-2014 10:43 PM Bookworm7890 has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15987
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 15 of 26 (737659)
09-28-2014 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Bookworm7890
09-27-2014 10:43 PM


Greeks
Maybe christians just stole from the greek flood story!

According to C. S. Lewis, the reason that pagan cultures bear similarities to the One True Religion (mine, by a bit of good luck) is that God inspired them to have myths similar to the Truth.

Now in the case of the ancient Greeks you might come up with some pettifogging objection like why didn't he inspire them to not be polytheists and to not have sex with teenage boys quite so much. To which I reply Isaiah 55 again. An explanation involving God doesn't have to make "sense" to you. It only has to make sense to God. And, since we can't read God's mind, in practice that means that we only have to be able to imagine that it makes sense to God. And since we have established that his thoughts are not our thoughts, we can imagine that anything might make sense to God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Bookworm7890, posted 09-27-2014 10:43 PM Bookworm7890 has not yet responded

  
1
2Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017