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Author Topic:   Fusion Power on the way - at last ?
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 130 (740858)
11-07-2014 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by NoNukes
11-07-2014 1:23 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
Yes they have. The alternative is to hook stuff up to the grid.

That doesn't address any of the hurdles I mentioned.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2014 1:23 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 130 (740859)
11-07-2014 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by xongsmith
11-07-2014 2:31 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
Your guess is as good as anyone's

There's as much evidence that we will have fusion power in a decade as there is that we won't have fusion for many decades or centuries: none.

And there is also no evidence that we can replace fossil fuels with wind, solar or hydro. We don't even know if these alternatives are real options in every instance where replacement might be considered.

What do we know?

We know that fossil fuels work everywhere.

We know that fusion would work everywhere.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by xongsmith, posted 11-07-2014 2:31 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 130 (740861)
11-07-2014 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by NoNukes
11-07-2014 1:03 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
You could not possibly have thought your argument through. Are you suggesting that you'd select option (d) from the question below:

Can't anyone in this thread separate out the points of an argument instead of blurring everything into big confused mess?

That quote was a reply to Cat Sci regarding a graph posted in Message 17 about the safety of current energy production methods.

Your post is complete gibberish and full of irrelevancy.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2014 1:03 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2014 10:41 PM Jon has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 130 (740873)
11-07-2014 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jon
11-07-2014 1:06 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
But I was specifically referring to the impracticability of steam power in space.

So you think we should avoid using steam to generate electricity on the ground because we cannot use it in space? Generating energy in space is pretty low on the list of issues we absolutely must solve. We can get around the solar system burning carbon. Who gives a #$! about carbon emissions in space?

The reality is very clear to me: we will continue to use coal until either all the coal is gone or we develop economically-viable fusion.

Being 'clear to Jon' isn't much of an argument.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 1:06 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 11:10 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 130 (740874)
11-07-2014 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Jon
11-07-2014 1:11 PM


Re: solar and wind in a distributed web -- attuned to life
Yes. But can I put those on my car?

Can you put a fusion reactor in your car?

Cars can utilize the output of any source that can generate electricity because we can use electricity to charge batteries and capacitors.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 1:11 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 11:22 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 130 (740875)
11-07-2014 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Jon
11-07-2014 1:11 PM


Re: solar and wind in a distributed web -- attuned to life
hhhhhh

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 1:11 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 130 (740876)
11-07-2014 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Jon
11-07-2014 1:11 PM


Re: solar and wind in a distributed web -- attuned to life
triplicate

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 1:11 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 130 (740877)
11-07-2014 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jon
11-07-2014 8:11 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
That quote was a reply to Cat Sci regarding a graph posted in Message 17 about the safety of current energy production methods.

Does it really matter why you said it? Fusion would still not be the answer for situations where we cannot trust people to operate a steam plant. Just about all of the other options would much simpler to operate than a fusion reactor.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 8:11 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 11:33 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 130 (740880)
11-07-2014 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by NoNukes
11-07-2014 10:28 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
So you think we should avoid using steam to generate electricity on the ground because we cannot use it in space?

Where did I ever make that argument?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2014 10:28 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2014 11:19 PM Jon has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 130 (740881)
11-07-2014 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Jon
11-07-2014 11:10 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
Where did I ever make that argument?

That's the conclusion that results from the dumb arguments you did make.

I asked you for the reason why we need to get rid of steam which is used to generate energy from multiple sources on earth, and which will probably be used even with fusion.

The only real answers you've given so far is that steam cannot be used in space or that it's old fashioned. Both of those answers are BS.

You've also made some complaints about other power sources not fitting in vehicles. Well you aren't going to put a fusion reactor in a car either.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 11:10 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 11:29 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 130 (740882)
11-07-2014 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by NoNukes
11-07-2014 10:33 PM


Re: solar and wind in a distributed web -- attuned to life
Cars can utilize the output of any source that can generate electricity because we can use electricity to charge batteries and capacitors.

Of course.

But solar, hydro, and wind don't offer us a substantial amount more energy than we can get from fossil fuels. In one of the articles I linked to, an estimation was given that solar power requires about two times the amount of land area as coal power. Another link mentioned that coal is on the low end in terms of land area used (Message 13).

As you know, land on our little planet is limited, and energy-generation technologies that require exponentially larger amounts of land to generate energy than the land we are already using (and the impact is greater when energy demands increase, which they will as population increases) simply don't stand up as feasible alternatives.

When you add to that the fact that many of these technologies will require land that is most suited to other important things (like transporting goods or growing food), the practicality of replacing fossil-fuel energy with solar or wind or whatever else is is hard to see.

Can you give me some numbers to demonstrate the potential for solar or wind to replace fossil fuels?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2014 10:33 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2014 11:33 PM Jon has responded
 Message 61 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2014 11:41 PM Jon has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 130 (740883)
11-07-2014 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by NoNukes
11-07-2014 11:19 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
That's the conclusion that results from the dumb arguments you did make.

I asked you for the reason why we need to get rid of steam which is used to generate energy from multiple sources on earth, and which will probably be used even with fusion.

The only real answers you've given so far is that steam cannot be used in space or that it's old fashioned. Both of those answers are BS.

You've also made some complaints about other power sources not fitting in vehicles. Well you aren't going to put a fusion reactor in a car either.

None of this stuff is related.

You are taking several different lines of discussion and trying to meld them as though they were ever meant to go together. And, of course, this doesn't work, because I never proposed any relationship between the safety of coal and the safety of fusion. I never said we need to give up steam because we cannot use it in space (we shouldn't give up steam unless we have a usable alternative; turning off the steam and sitting in the dark just because steam doesn't work in space is a stupid idea).

Anyway, I'm not interested in cleaning up your sloppy mess. If you can't keep different lines of argumentation separate, whether intentionally or because you're stupid, then there's little point in trying to discuss anything else with you.

Uncross your wires and then we can talk.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2014 11:19 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 58 of 130 (740884)
11-07-2014 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Jon
11-07-2014 11:22 PM


Re: solar and wind in a distributed web -- attuned to life
But solar, hydro, and wind don't offer us a substantial amount more energy than we can get from fossil fuels. In one of the articles I linked to, an estimation was given that solar power requires about two times the amount of land area as coal power.

That statement does not make the case you are claiming. Particularly if the coal land use includes the coal mine. Wind power can in some cases use zero land area. Solar power on roof tops uses otherwise unusable land area.

Can you give me some numbers to demonstrate the potential for solar or wind to replace fossil fuels?

Isn't this something I should have expected you to do?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 11:22 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 11:38 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 130 (740885)
11-07-2014 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by NoNukes
11-07-2014 10:41 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
Does it really matter why you said it? Fusion would still not be the answer for situations where we cannot trust people to operate a steam plant. Just about all of the other options would much simpler to operate than a fusion reactor.

Of course it matters why I said it. The discussion about safety had nothing to do with fusion.

The attempt to link the two is your doing - not mine.

So any deficiency in the logic of that link is a reflection on your poor attempt of straw-man building, and not a reflection on any argument I actually made.

You're just being a weasel.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2014 10:41 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2014 11:55 PM Jon has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 130 (740886)
11-07-2014 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by NoNukes
11-07-2014 11:33 PM


Re: solar and wind in a distributed web -- attuned to life
Particularly if the coal land use includes the coal mine.

I don't recall if those numbers include the mines or not. But regardless, coal mines do not remain coal mines forever.

ABE: I see now that the numbers do include the mines. So even counting the mines, coal-generation uses significantly less land area (and can use land least-desirable for any other purposes) than solar. /ABE

On the other hand, solar and wind generation requires permanent use of the land involved.

Isn't this something I should have expected you to do?

You think it is a comparable (or better) alternative. Prove it.

It's no one's job to prove similarities between things that on the surface have nothing in common with one another except the person making the claim that they are comparable.

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2014 11:33 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
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