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Author Topic:   Fusion Power on the way - at last ?
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 130 (740971)
11-08-2014 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by RAZD
11-08-2014 2:18 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
Funny how you keep running away from the obvious: ALL their electrical needs are met with solar, Jon, ALL.

Unless you can tell me what those energy needs are, you can't demonstrate feasibility for advanced and powerful first-world nations with massive energy requirements.

Consider: If all we need to do is light up a bulb, a pickle from the fridge will do.

But that doesn't mean we can meet a developed society's energy needs with pickles.

You need to present some usable figures. That percentage you've quoted is just a soundbite.

Which is a reason why coal power companies are bad -- they don't want\care to provide electrical power, they want to make money, lots of money.

Sure. The companies are bad. But that doesn't mean the technology is necessarily bad or the wrong answer in all circumstances.

Pharmaceutical companies aren't very good either; but I think we can all agree that the science of developing and using drugs is a pretty good thing.

And when people can get a cheaper solution by going somewhere else then there is absolutely no reason that they shouldn't do that.

Of course. I've mentioned several times that renewable energy is the only sensible route where it can be done cost-effectively and with results comparable to the current mainstream methods (fossil fuels).

For too long there has not been much of a choice in getting electricity, the "utilities" were basically monopolies that were pretty much free to set what rates they wanted.

Solar and wind break that stranglehold.

Now you're talking about something completely different than meeting a developed nation's energy needs.

I have no interest in discussing people rebelling against the 'Company' by putting solar panels on their roofs and windmills in their yards.

On the list of problems to solve regarding energy, sticking it to rich companies falls pretty low on the list.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by RAZD, posted 11-08-2014 2:18 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by RAZD, posted 11-17-2014 4:29 PM Jon has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15754
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 77 of 130 (741078)
11-09-2014 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Jon
11-08-2014 12:44 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
Jon writes:

I'm talking specifically bout the real-world (in)feasibility of large-scale solar/wind power in place of fossil fuels.


Of course it isn't feasible to replace fossil fuels with solar/wind in cars, etc. I asked you in Message 70, "If I do buy a portable fusion generator that can put out a few thousand kWh, what will it run on?"
This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Jon, posted 11-08-2014 12:44 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Jon, posted 11-09-2014 1:53 PM ringo has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 130 (741088)
11-09-2014 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
11-09-2014 1:16 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
"If I do buy a portable fusion generator that can put out a few thousand kWh, what will it run on?"

Presumably the same thing any other fusion generator would run on: fusion power (from Wikipedia).

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 11-09-2014 1:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 11-09-2014 2:19 PM Jon has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15754
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 79 of 130 (741092)
11-09-2014 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Jon
11-09-2014 1:53 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
Jon writes:

Presumably the same thing any other fusion generator would run on: fusion power (from Wikipedia).


Don't play dumb. What fuels it? You can't get something from nothing. What's the input?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Jon, posted 11-09-2014 1:53 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Jon, posted 11-09-2014 2:26 PM ringo has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 130 (741094)
11-09-2014 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by ringo
11-09-2014 2:19 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
Don't play dumb. What fuels it? You can't get something from nothing. What's the input?

I ain't the Fusion Genie. If you want to know, look it up. I gave you the link.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 11-09-2014 2:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 11-09-2014 2:43 PM Jon has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15754
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 81 of 130 (741097)
11-09-2014 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Jon
11-09-2014 2:26 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
Jon writes:

I ain't the Fusion Genie. If you want to know, look it up. I gave you the link.


I asked you earlier in the thread if you could run your Toyota on fusion power. Your answer was the highly profound, "Yes."

I'm asking you to back up your claim. The onus is on you to tell us what that Toyota would run on or what my portable generator would run on. What is the input?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Jon, posted 11-09-2014 2:26 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Jon, posted 11-09-2014 3:54 PM ringo has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 130 (741102)
11-09-2014 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
11-09-2014 2:43 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
I asked you earlier in the thread if you could run your Toyota on fusion power. Your answer was the highly profound, "Yes."

I'm asking you to back up your claim. The onus is on you to tell us what that Toyota would run on or what my portable generator would run on. What is the input?

What you actually said was: "Do you see fusion as a sensible alternative to the fossil-fuel-burner in your Toyota?"

All forms of power are alternatives to fossil-fuels when it comes to transportation because generated electricity can simply be stored in a battery that fits in the vehicle.

Solar and wind have yet to demonstrate an ability to provide enough electrical power for non-transportation needs. It is very unlikely that they will ever generate electricity in such a way as to provide a cost-effective and comparable alternative to gasoline and diesel ICEs so long as oil remains in plentiful-enough supply. Our current fossil-fueled power plants cannot even provide electricity that's a cost-effective and comparable alternative to the ICE.

If we are to move away from oil-powered ICEs in transportation, then we need an electricity-generating method that can supply copious amounts of affordable electricity for charging batteries (or other technologies we might develop to replace batteries).

Fusion is the only power source that even promises this as a possibility. Whether those promises are empty or not, no other technology currently possesses even the theoretical capability of replacing fossil-fuels in ICEs.

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 11-09-2014 2:43 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 11-10-2014 10:48 AM Jon has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15754
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 83 of 130 (741167)
11-10-2014 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Jon
11-09-2014 3:54 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
Jon writes:

What you actually said was: "Do you see fusion as a sensible alternative to the fossil-fuel-burner in your Toyota?"


I am trying to get you to answer a simple question: What would a fusion reactor - say in a car - run on? In effect, a fusion reactor is an internal "combustion" engine, so what is the input?

The point of the question is that there has to be something that you put in the car to make it go from A to B. I want you to tell us what that something is for fusion power. Then we can discuss whether or not that something is an effective alternative to fossil fuels.

If not, then there are no alternatives, not even pipe dreams, and we'll have to think about getting rid of millions of individual engines instead of perpetuating a system that was probably a bad idea in the first place.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Jon, posted 11-09-2014 3:54 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Jon, posted 11-10-2014 10:54 AM ringo has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 130 (741171)
11-10-2014 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by ringo
11-10-2014 10:48 AM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
Read the Wikipedia article.

Like I said, it's not my job to answer all your questions about fusion (me not being a nuclear physicist and all).


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 11-10-2014 10:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 11-10-2014 11:05 AM Jon has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15754
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 85 of 130 (741176)
11-10-2014 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Jon
11-10-2014 10:54 AM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
Jon writes:

Read the Wikipedia article.


Read the rules. Bare links are not a legitimate argument. They're only for backing up an argument that you actually make.

Jon writes:

Like I said, it's not my job to answer all your questions about fusion (me not being a nuclear physicist and all).


Your claim is that fusion is the only potential alternative to fossil fuels for private vehicles. I'm saying that we need to know what the input is before we can decide whether or not it really is a viable alternative. For example, if the input is hydrogen (wild guess), then the plants that produce hydrogen present a whole new layer of problems.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Jon, posted 11-10-2014 10:54 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Jon, posted 11-10-2014 12:03 PM ringo has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 130 (741196)
11-10-2014 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by ringo
11-10-2014 11:05 AM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
Read the rules. Bare links are not a legitimate argument. They're only for backing up an argument that you actually make.

And I'm not making an argument.

You asked a bare question and I kindly provided a link to a resource that would answer it.

And now you are sobbing because I didn't bother to shit the answer out on a little golden plate for you.

Do your own damn research.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 11-10-2014 11:05 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 11-10-2014 12:08 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15754
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 87 of 130 (741198)
11-10-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Jon
11-10-2014 12:03 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
Jon writes:

You asked a bare question and I kindly provided a link to a resource that would answer it.


Bare questions are allowed. Bare links are not. If you don't know the answer, just admit it.

I think it's an important question. If we need to put something into a fusion reactor to make it work - and the laws of thermodynamics suggest that we do - then the availability and suitability of that input is important to any discussion of whether or not fusion is a viable alternative.

So, what's the input?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Jon, posted 11-10-2014 12:03 PM Jon has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by xongsmith, posted 11-10-2014 1:36 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 89 by Percy, posted 11-10-2014 1:44 PM ringo has responded

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1863
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009


(1)
Message 88 of 130 (741219)
11-10-2014 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
11-10-2014 12:08 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
Ringo asks of Jon:

So, what's the input?

Maybe it'll just suck the Deuterium & Tritium out of thin air....
...store the waste Helium to sell to the circuses for their balloons?


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 11-10-2014 12:08 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17980
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 89 of 130 (741220)
11-10-2014 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
11-10-2014 12:08 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
You're right that the rules say Jon needs to argue his position himself rather than letting links do it for him, but he's already conceded he can't do that. This begs the question how he knows the link provides a viable answer if he doesn't understand it, but you're not going to get blood from a stone.

In my rudimentary understanding of fusion, it is the deuterium and tritium isotopes of hydrogen that is the fuel. The big problem isn't fuel, I wouldn't think, but ignition. Temperatures in the millions of degrees Kelvin would be required.

Another concern with vehicular fusion power: What happens in the event of an accident and containment integrity is lost for the millions of degrees fusion reaction?

Electricity is the future of vehicular locomotion, regardless of the ultimate power generation source of that electricity. The only practical on-board electricity generation sources are internal combustion engines driving generators (not a long term solution due to pollution and global warming concerns) or fuel cells. All other sources of electric power would distribute their electricity on the power grid, and cars would plug into the power grid.

My own opinion is that fusion will only become a practical power source if cold fusion somehow becomes a reality.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 11-10-2014 12:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Jon, posted 11-10-2014 3:24 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 11-12-2014 10:50 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 90 of 130 (741237)
11-10-2014 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Percy
11-10-2014 1:44 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck — At First
In my rudimentary understanding of fusion, it is the deuterium and tritium isotopes of hydrogen that is the fuel. The big problem isn't fuel, I wouldn't think, but ignition. Temperatures in the millions of degrees Kelvin would be required.

Another concern with vehicular fusion power: What happens in the event of an accident and containment integrity is lost for the millions of degrees fusion reaction?

Yes, those are potential fuel sources for fusion power. They are discussed in the Wiki article, where anyone on this forum can learn more about fusion than they can probably understand (except for a few of our members).

And you highlight some good reasons why putting fusion generators in cars is a stupid idea. There are plenty of other reasons too. Quite simply, though, it's likely to be uneconomical. The energy provided by a single generator would be far more than any car would need; taken against the cost of making the generators, putting them directly in cars doesn't make sense. They might be useful in trains, though, if they can truly be made as small as the OP's link suggests. Of course, if they replace fossil fuels, I don't know what the trains are going to be hauling past my house by the millions of gallons and thousands of tons a day, but I'm sure they'll think of something.

Anyway, an on-site energy storage system and an electrical motor are the only sensible alternative to ICEs powered by bio-fuels.

And fusion could provide the energy pretty easily if it could get going.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Percy, posted 11-10-2014 1:44 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Rahvin, posted 11-11-2014 5:32 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
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