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Author Topic:   The US Civil War as an example of God's Wrath.
jar
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From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
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(1)
Message 1 of 96 (741164)
11-10-2014 10:17 AM


In Message 816 of Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID Faith claims that many Christians consider the US Civil War as an example of God's Wrath on the nation for slavery.

I do not doubt her claim at all but think it would be educational to see what that would say about the God she attempts to market.

First some basics.

Let's look at deaths. Recent figures point to about 140,000 Union combat deaths and 75,000 Confederate combat deaths.

So about twice as many folk opposing slavery died in combat as those alleged under Faith's scenario to be supporting slavery.

Slightly more Union soldiers died from causes (disease, starvation) other than combat than Confederate soldiers.

Based on those figures it would seem more likely the US Civil War was an example of God's Wrath for opposing slavery than for supporting slavery.

But there is more.

Only about 20% of Southerners actually owned slaves, maybe one out of three families. Based on and the fact that those wealthy enough to own slaves could hire folk to fight for them or were considered officers and so received better food, clothing, shelter and care than the average grunt it seems almost all of the folk that died never owned slaves.

So what does all that say about God's Wrath? Well for starters it says kill twice as many folk that opposed slavery as supported slavery and kill four to ten non-slave owners for every slave owner.

Doesn't sound like a very smart God.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 11-10-2014 10:51 AM jar has acknowledged this reply
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 10:53 AM jar has responded
 Message 5 by frako, posted 11-10-2014 10:59 AM jar has not yet responded

  
AdminPhat
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Message 2 of 96 (741166)
11-10-2014 10:39 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the The US Civil War as an example of God's Wrath. thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

Note: I moved this topic here because I feel that it would be educational to discuss the whole idea of "marketing God" based on scripture---from an educational perspective. What are some of the reasons that we as humans attempt to influence other humans concerning obedience and worship regarding our beliefs? My intent is to approach this from a psychological and educational perspective rather than simply a belief one.

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


    
Phat
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From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
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Message 3 of 96 (741168)
11-10-2014 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
11-10-2014 10:17 AM


Marketing God As A Command
jar writes:

I do not doubt her claim at all but think it would be educational to see what that would say about the God she attempts to market.

As a Christian, do you think that every religion attempts to market their conceptualization and belief to others?

Would humanity and society become more healthy and--dare I say---empathetic towards one another?


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


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Faith
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Message 4 of 96 (741170)
11-10-2014 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
11-10-2014 10:17 AM


jar writes:

Let's look at deaths. Recent figures point to about 140,000 Union combat deaths and 75,000 Confederate combat deaths.

Perhaps it would be more instructive to consider it in terms of percentage:

This is from Civil War Trust:

At the beginning of the war the Northern states had a combined population of 22 million people. The Southern states had a combined population of about 9 million. This disparity was reflected in the size of the armies in the field. The Union forces outnumbered the Confederates roughly two to one.

Here is what Lincoln said in his second inaugural address, referring to the war as Gods mighty scourge:

" If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 7 by ringo, posted 11-10-2014 11:13 AM Faith has responded
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 11-10-2014 11:23 AM Faith has responded
 Message 17 by NoNukes, posted 11-10-2014 12:30 PM Faith has responded
 Message 18 by jar, posted 11-10-2014 12:38 PM Faith has responded

    
frako
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From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 5 of 96 (741174)
11-10-2014 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
11-10-2014 10:17 AM


well it makes perfect sense, the biblical god is fond of slavery as evidenced by the bible, so he did his best to make humanity keep it but we the lost flock disobeyed his wishes yet again.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


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Jon
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 6 of 96 (741175)
11-10-2014 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
11-10-2014 10:53 AM


Perhaps it would be more instructive to consider it in terms of percentage:

At the beginning of the war the Northern states had a combined population of 22 million people. The Southern states had a combined population of about 9 million. This disparity was reflected in the size of the armies in the field. The Union forces outnumbered the Confederates roughly two to one.

So God values a person's life less as population increases?

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

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 Message 4 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 10:53 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
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Message 7 of 96 (741179)
11-10-2014 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
11-10-2014 10:53 AM


Faith writes:

Perhaps it would be more instructive to consider it in terms of percentage:


So, as a percentage the death rate was about equal? By that standard, it would be legitimate to shoot one innocent bystander for every criminal we have to shoot? For every second flight across the ocean we crash one plane? For every second trip to the 7-11 we wreck one car?

That seems like a messy way to solve a problem.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 10:53 AM Faith has responded

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 Message 8 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 11:20 AM ringo has responded

  
Faith
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 96 (741180)
11-10-2014 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
11-10-2014 11:13 AM


The conclusion I would draw is that God held both North and South equally responsible for slavery. Probably because a nation is considered to be a unit under one covenant.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 7 by ringo, posted 11-10-2014 11:13 AM ringo has responded

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Phat
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Joined: 12-30-2003
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Message 9 of 96 (741182)
11-10-2014 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
11-10-2014 10:53 AM


It seems like God had no direct hand in the wrath of the civil war, though. Seems like the combatants employed wrath towards one another.

Even Lincoln said that God essentially allowed them to have at it..."the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him?"

It seems as if God is letting human nature take its course...according to Lincoln. Perhaps He will allow the same to happen with modern day sins and choices. There is no evidence that God causes any wrath...it appears that the wrath is hoisted by humans upon one another.

From a Creationist perspective, do you see God as having or needing to execute a direct intervention in human affairs? It seems we do a fairly good job of demonizing ourselves through our behaviors.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


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ringo
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Posts: 13191
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 10 of 96 (741183)
11-10-2014 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
11-10-2014 11:20 AM


Faith writes:

The conclusion I would draw is that God held both North and South equally responsible for slavery.


Fair enough. That would explain why God kills Christians along with infidels when His wrath comes in the form of hurricanes, etc.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 11:20 AM Faith has responded

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 Message 11 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 11:38 AM ringo has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 25282
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 11 of 96 (741186)
11-10-2014 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
11-10-2014 11:27 AM


However, as far as percentage of the population goes, the South lost more than the North.
This message is a reply to:
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 Message 13 by Theodoric, posted 11-10-2014 11:52 AM Faith has responded

    
ringo
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Posts: 13191
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 12 of 96 (741189)
11-10-2014 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
11-10-2014 11:38 AM


Faith writes:

However, as far as percentage of the population goes, the South lost more than the North.


So we're back to my original point: Kill a few good guys to get a few more bad guys. Messy.
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Theodoric
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Message 13 of 96 (741193)
11-10-2014 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
11-10-2014 11:38 AM


So you have no evidence that the Civil War was an example of your god's wrath. Come on present some argument.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 11:38 AM Faith has responded

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 Message 14 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 11:56 AM Theodoric has responded

    
Faith
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Posts: 25282
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 14 of 96 (741194)
11-10-2014 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Theodoric
11-10-2014 11:52 AM


1) Lincoln thought so, as quoted above.

2) And nothing happens without God, as scripture says:

Isaiah 45:7 ;I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Evil meaning calamity, not sin.


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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
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Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 15 of 96 (741199)
11-10-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
11-10-2014 11:56 AM


Funny you would use Lincoln. He wasn't much of a christian. At best he was a deist.

Besides all that why does what Lincoln said or thought mean anything?

Your second example is just laughable. Read my signature below.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 11:56 AM Faith has responded

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