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Author Topic:   The US Civil War as an example of God's Wrath.
Faith
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Posts: 26605
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 96 (741201)
11-10-2014 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Theodoric
11-10-2014 12:08 PM


There is some question about whether Lincoln was a Christian, he may have been despite the ambiguity, but even Deists in America know their Bible and their Christian theology and appeal to it, as the Deist founders did also.
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NoNukes
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Posts: 10062
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 17 of 96 (741206)
11-10-2014 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
11-10-2014 10:53 AM


At the beginning of the war the Northern states had a combined population of 22 million people. The Southern states had a combined population of about 9 million. This disparity was reflected in the size of the armies in the field. The Union forces outnumbered the Confederates roughly two to one.

Let's do the math then

140,000/22 Million = 0.64 %
75,000/9 million = 0.83 %

I'm not seeing much of an argument here. Maybe we should take into account the fact that Kentucky, Maryland, and Delaware were slave holding states?

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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jar
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Posts: 29612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 18 of 96 (741209)
11-10-2014 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
11-10-2014 10:53 AM


Faith helps show the God she markets is a fool.
Why do you keep trying to convince folk the God you market is a fool as well as evil?

The Nation did not suffer; it came out of the Civil War stronger, wealthier and more unified than before.

The freed slaves continued to suffer.

Women remained chattel.

Discrimination continued.

So it seems the best the God you try to market could do is to kill a whole bunch of innocent people and let the suffering, injustice and discrimination continue.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 4 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 10:53 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 1:12 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26605
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 19 of 96 (741215)
11-10-2014 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
11-10-2014 11:23 AM


I haven't been able to figure out how you are understanding that quote from Lincoln. He's quoting Jesus, by the way, in case you don't recognize it. The offense in this context would be slavery and the woe would be God's judgment against those by whom it came.
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26605
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 96 (741217)
11-10-2014 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
11-10-2014 12:38 PM


Re: Faith helps show the God she markets is a fool.
The nation suffered horribly from the war, so many families losing loved ones, and I don't think the suffering can be reckoned just in the numbers of soldiers killed. The South was absolutely destroyed and never fully recovered.

(a little fact that is neither here nor there: I had a great great uncle who fought for the north and died in Andersonville prison of disease. He was only about twenty. A cousin inherited his sword. How my brother would love to have it.)

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 26605
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 96 (741218)
11-10-2014 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by NoNukes
11-10-2014 12:30 PM


The numbers as you demonstrate it show that the South was the bigger loser, which is an answer to jar's claim that it was the North.
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Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 2:17 PM Faith has responded
 Message 26 by jar, posted 11-10-2014 2:55 PM Faith has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 22 of 96 (741222)
11-10-2014 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
11-10-2014 1:28 PM


Let's do the math then

140,000/22 Million = 0.64 %
75,000/9 million = 0.83 %

The numbers as you demonstrate it show that the South was the bigger loser, which is an answer to jar's claim that it was the North.

But the North lost more people. And the south only lost more percentage by two-tenths of a percent.

What you are saying is that if there was an army of 1 million people fighting against just 2 people, and those 2 people killed 480,000 people from the other army while only one of them died, well that would mean that the 2 person army was the biggest loser.

Because they lost 50% of their army with the million-man army only lost 48% of theirs.

That's retarded.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 1:28 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 2:35 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26605
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 23 of 96 (741223)
11-10-2014 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by New Cat's Eye
11-10-2014 2:17 PM


OK I misread the decimal point, sorry, still contradicts jar's huge number of losses for the North as opposed to the South.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 24 of 96 (741225)
11-10-2014 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
11-10-2014 2:35 PM


OK I misread the decimal point, sorry, still contradicts jar's huge number of losses for the North as opposed to the South.

But it doesn't, the North still lost almost twice as many people as the South.

So it looks like your god was not involved.

And if he was, he was either incompetent or evil.


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 Message 23 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 2:35 PM Faith has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 26605
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 96 (741226)
11-10-2014 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by New Cat's Eye
11-10-2014 2:40 PM


My point way back there already was that the percentage of what was lost is what matters, not the absolute numbers, because there was such a discrepancy in the size of the populations. By that more reasonable way of looking at it the losses were roughly equal.

The North had more than twice the population of the South: 22 million to 9 million.

Their army was roughly twice the size of the South's.

The South lost roughly half the number the North did, or about the same percentage.

Jar said the North lost more. He was wrong.

how I remember the conversation, I don't have the patience to go back and review it right now.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 2:40 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 3:11 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 26 of 96 (741227)
11-10-2014 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
11-10-2014 1:28 PM


Faith endorses New Math as well as New Speak
Faith, your ability to lie to yourself and others never ceases to amaze me.

From the OP.

quote:
In Message 816 of Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID Faith claims that many Christians consider the US Civil War as an example of God's Wrath on the nation for slavery.

I do not doubt her claim at all but think it would be educational to see what that would say about the God she attempts to market.

First some basics.

Let's look at deaths. Recent figures point to about 140,000 Union combat deaths and 75,000 Confederate combat deaths.

So about twice as many folk opposing slavery died in combat as those alleged under Faith's scenario to be supporting slavery.

Slightly more Union soldiers died from causes (disease, starvation) other than combat than Confederate soldiers.

Based on those figures it would seem more likely the US Civil War was an example of God's Wrath for opposing slavery than for supporting slavery.

But there is more.

Only about 20% of Southerners actually owned slaves, maybe one out of three families. Based on and the fact that those wealthy enough to own slaves could hire folk to fight for them or were considered officers and so received better food, clothing, shelter and care than the average grunt it seems almost all of the folk that died never owned slaves.

So what does all that say about God's Wrath? Well for starters it says kill twice as many folk that opposed slavery as supported slavery and kill four to ten non-slave owners for every slave owner.

Doesn't sound like a very smart God.


Which is larger, 140,000 or 75,000?

Sure, just as when it comes to discussing the Bible you can try to avoid facing facts, but the facts remain.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 1:28 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 2:57 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26605
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 96 (741228)
11-10-2014 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
11-10-2014 2:55 PM


Re: Faith endorses New Math as well as New Speak
I may be lousy at math but I'm not lying.

75000 is roughly half of 140 thousand. What's your problem?

The North had more than twice the population of the South: 22 million to 9 million.

Their army was roughly twice the size of the South's.

The South lost roughly half the number the North did, or about the same percentage as the North lost.

Jar said the North lost more. He was wrong.

AND BY THE WAY I HAVE NO STAKE IN THESE NUMBERS. I couldn't care less who had the greater loss.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 26 by jar, posted 11-10-2014 2:55 PM jar has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 29612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 28 of 96 (741230)
11-10-2014 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
11-10-2014 2:57 PM


Re: Faith endorses New Math as well as New Speak
LOL

Palm many peas?

Is 140,000 more than 75,000?

Why did your God think it was necessary to kill many times more non-slave owners than slave owners?

Is it just that She is an idiot or some other reason?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 2:57 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 29 of 96 (741232)
11-10-2014 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
11-10-2014 2:50 PM


My point way back there already was that the percentage of what was lost is what matters, not the absolute numbers,

And that's even worse. Continuing with my analogy:

You would be saying that God was on the side of the 1 million man army, because they defeated a higher percentage of people in the 2 man army.

But clearly, 2 men killing 480,000 people is much more miraculous than 1 million people killing one man.

That's why, if your god was involved, he was either ineffective or evil. He helped the 1 million man army side kill off 50% of the population of the opposing army - which was only 1 man.

And while they were doing that, he let 480,000 people on the good side die.

BEHOLD HIS AWESOME POWER!

The North had more than twice the population of the South: 22 million to 9 million.

Their army was roughly twice the size of the South's.

The South lost roughly half the number the North did, or about the same percentage.

So then, god screwed the north over big time!

They had twice as many people but lost the same amount. Why would god do that to them?

They were trying to save the slaves! And god hindered them greatly! What a jerk!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 2:50 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 3:18 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26605
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 30 of 96 (741234)
11-10-2014 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by New Cat's Eye
11-10-2014 3:11 PM


I have not said one word in favor of the idea that the numbers killed had anything to do with how God judged the two sides. That's the theory of others here, and I eventually said I don't think the numbers can tell us that.

I've been talking about relative losses and to lose a higher percentage of your population is a greater loss, therefore the South sustained a greater loss than the North, in contrast with jar's comparison of the absolute numbers..

And if you will read the WHOLE thread you'll find answers to the rest of your insulting and blasphemous nonsense.


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 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 3:11 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 3:29 PM Faith has responded
 Message 42 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 6:14 AM Faith has responded

    
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