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Author Topic:   The US Civil War as an example of God's Wrath.
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11352
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 31 of 96 (741238)
11-10-2014 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
11-10-2014 3:18 PM


I've been talking about relative losses and to lose a higher percentage of your population is a greater loss, therefore the South sustained a greater loss than the North, in contrast with jar's comparison of the absolute numbers..

Just like the 2 man army had a "greater loss" than the 1 million man army...

As I said, that's retarded.

I have not said one word in favor of the idea that the numbers killed had anything to do with how God judged the two sides.

You said that you regard the Civil War as God's judgment/wrath on the nation for slavery.

That judgement was in the form of killing off proportionally more of people who were trying to stop slavery.

Ergo, your god is stupid or evil. Or simply was not involved.

And if you will read the WHOLE thread you'll find answers to the rest of your insulting and blasphemous nonsense.

I don't have the patience to go back and review it right now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 3:18 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 3:46 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 96 (741239)
11-10-2014 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by New Cat's Eye
11-10-2014 3:29 PM


To say it was God's judgment is only to say that it was a terrible calamity, a lot of people died and there was a lot of suffering. You all have added the specifics, I'm not interested in the specifics. God has his own way of measuring sin and judgment, He sees things we can't see, and I don't try to second-guess him.

But jar was wrong that the North was judged more harshly as far as numbers go, it was more or less equal though the South's losses were somewhat higher proportionally. But the big loss, as I also said, was the devastation to the land and property of the South. Seems to me that puts them way over on the side of having sustained the bigger loss.

BUT AGAIN, I HAVE NO STAKE IN ANY OF THIS. God judges things according to His own standards and there's no particular reason we should be able to figure them out beyond the most general observations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 3:29 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 3:51 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 3:56 PM Faith has responded
 Message 41 by jar, posted 11-10-2014 5:06 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11352
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 33 of 96 (741241)
11-10-2014 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
11-10-2014 3:46 PM


To say it was God's judgment is only to say that it was a terrible calamity,

That's not saying anything at all! And you could say that about anything!

Catholics killed a bunch of protestants in the past, it was a terrible calamity.

HOLY SHIT GOD WAS JUDGING THEM!

Why don't you just keep your stupid bullshit to yourself?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 3:46 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by AdminPhat, posted 11-10-2014 3:57 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11352
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 34 of 96 (741242)
11-10-2014 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
11-10-2014 3:46 PM


I'm definitely going to keep this in mind.

Next time you bitch about how many Protestants were killed by Catholics, I will inform you that it was the result of God judging the Protestants.

And I can always fall back on the fact that God judges things according to His own standards and there's no particular reason we should be able to figure them out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 3:46 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 4:31 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1792
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 35 of 96 (741243)
11-10-2014 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by New Cat's Eye
11-10-2014 3:51 PM


Reminder
Why don't you just keep your stupid bullshit to yourself?

Forum Guidelines Lets remember #10: The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person.

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 3:51 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 3:59 PM AdminPhat has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11352
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 36 of 96 (741244)
11-10-2014 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by AdminPhat
11-10-2014 3:57 PM


Re: Reminder
Sorry Phat.

It was an honest question. Disrespectful, but honest.

Duly noted.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by AdminPhat, posted 11-10-2014 3:57 PM AdminPhat has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 96 (741245)
11-10-2014 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by New Cat's Eye
11-10-2014 3:56 PM


You're actually claiming that the murder of fifty million Protestants and seventeen million Jews, Muslims, atheists and witches by the Roman Church over a six hundred year period is judgment and not persecution? We figure the Civil War was judgment because of slavery, which was the main issue it was fought over. What sins would you impute to the sixty seven million killed over six hundred years? The reason given by the RCC was that they disagreed with them.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 3:56 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 4:39 PM Faith has responded
 Message 50 by GDR, posted 11-11-2014 11:57 AM Faith has responded
 Message 64 by Theodoric, posted 11-11-2014 6:18 PM Faith has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11352
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 38 of 96 (741247)
11-10-2014 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
11-10-2014 4:31 PM


You're actually claiming that the murder of fifty million Protestants and seventeen million Jews, Muslims, atheists and witches by the Roman Church over a six hundred year period is judgment and not persecution?

Yep, God judged the daylights out of them. Hard. Like, Old Testament hard.

Isn't His power awesome!?

What sins would you impute to the sixty seven million killed over six hundred years?

God judges things according to His own standards and there's no particular reason we should be able to figure them out.

You know that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 4:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 4:47 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 39 of 96 (741248)
11-10-2014 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by New Cat's Eye
11-10-2014 4:39 PM


You apparently don't mind twisting the truth, since what I said only discounted specifics, not general reasons for judgment and I was VERY clear about that. Obviously you don't care, any old lie will do when it serves your bias.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 4:39 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 4:56 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11352
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 40 of 96 (741250)
11-10-2014 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Faith
11-10-2014 4:47 PM


You apparently don't mind twisting the truth,

...

any old lie will do when it serves your bias

Dear Lord, get this woman a mirror!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 4:47 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28841
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 41 of 96 (741252)
11-10-2014 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
11-10-2014 3:46 PM


one of these things is not like the other...
Faith, which is larger, 140,000 deaths or 75,000 deaths?

It really is that simple.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 3:46 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 6:28 AM jar has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9551
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 42 of 96 (741294)
11-11-2014 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
11-10-2014 3:18 PM


I have not said one word in favor of the idea that the numbers killed had anything to do with how God judged the two sides.

That's untrue. You suggested the percentages meant something. You continued to say that even after I pointed out how trivial the difference in percentages was. 0.6% compared to 0.8%.

That's the theory of others here, and I eventually said I don't think the numbers can tell us that.

Eventually, yes. But even after saying that you posted nonsense number arguments.

I've been talking about relative losses and to lose a higher percentage of your population is a greater loss, therefore the South sustained a greater loss than the North, in contrast with jar's comparison of the absolute numbers

Those are still numbers arguments.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 3:18 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 6:41 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9551
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 43 of 96 (741296)
11-11-2014 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
11-10-2014 5:06 PM


Re: one of these things is not like the other...
Faith, which is larger, 140,000 deaths or 75,000 deaths?

I think there is an argument that the loser suffered more. Large portions of the South were utterly destroyed and their human capital was liberated. For period up until reconstruction, the Southern states were forced to take subordinate roles in how the country was governed.

One might make similar arguments regarding WWIII. The allied casualties were something like four times as large as those of the axis countries. Yet Japan and Germany were utterly destroyed. Even if you discount the large number of Russian casualties, the allied total casualties were well over double those of the axis.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 11-10-2014 5:06 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 11-11-2014 6:50 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 46 by jar, posted 11-11-2014 8:38 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 44 of 96 (741297)
11-11-2014 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by NoNukes
11-11-2014 6:14 AM


The numbers were brought up by others as if they reflect the essence of God's judgment. I never meant to agree with that way of looking at it and I'm sorry if it came across that I agreed. I simply thought that jar's absolute numbers didn't represent the actuality of the loss -- even just with respect to the numbers -- and that the reality comes across more clearly when you see the percentages involved, showing in this case a more equal loss than the absolute numbers show. But I don't think I said anything to imply I regard this as a measure of God's judgment.

I never intended to make the numbers, either absolutes or percentages, a measure of how God judged the North and South, and as I also argued and you go on to point out, the loss of property made the South's loss the greater, just as it made Germany and Japan's losses the greater in WWII.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 6:14 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9314
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 45 of 96 (741298)
11-11-2014 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by NoNukes
11-11-2014 6:28 AM


Re: one of these things is not like the other...
The allied casualties were something like four times as large as those of the axis countries. Yet Japan and Germany were utterly destroyed. Even if you discount the large number of Russian casualties, the allied total casualties were well over double those of the axis.
Are you sure about that? I looked at the statistics here....looks like China had 20 million deaths and Russia 25 million, but without those two the axis had way more deaths than the US and Britain. Again, I argue that God allows humans to manifest His wrath by not listening to His Spirit. His wrath is the direct result of our disobedience.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 6:28 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 11:51 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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