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Author Topic:   The US Civil War as an example of God's Wrath.
jar
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Posts: 29797
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 46 of 96 (741301)
11-11-2014 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by NoNukes
11-11-2014 6:28 AM


Re: one of these things is not like the other...
But the Nation, the US, came out stronger and wealthier than before the war. Remember Faith's claim was that the US Civil War was an example of God's Wrath on the nation for slavery.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 6:28 AM NoNukes has responded

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 Message 47 by Phat, posted 11-11-2014 10:54 AM jar has not yet responded
 Message 51 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 12:00 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
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Posts: 10240
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 47 of 96 (741309)
11-11-2014 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
11-11-2014 8:38 AM


Clarification Of Gods Wrath
You and I have discussed interpretation of religion and dogma many times, and I see this as an opportunity to do so yet again. Critics would ask how we have any way of knowing how GOD thinks, what His wrath might entail, and what sort of things we would have to do in order to tick Him off.

Lets start with the simple premise that God is Love. I would argue that God is Good, whereas others may argue that God is Complete---being both good and evil. I tend to see evil---even though created and/or allowed to exist by God as a choice that is not to our advantage to make.

Wrath is the result of human disobedience. Some argue that AIDS was an example of Gods wrath and judgement on society but I see it as a natural disease run amok. Some could argue, however, that death and destruction-in general-came about after the Fall.

What is the definition of wrath? Does free will allow for the knowledge of good and evil and the responsibility to avoid wrath?

Wrath(Websters)
: strong vengeful anger or indignation

: retributory punishment for an offense or a crime : divine chastisement


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


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 Message 46 by jar, posted 11-11-2014 8:38 AM jar has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10126
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 48 of 96 (741311)
11-11-2014 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
11-11-2014 6:50 AM


Re: one of these things is not like the other...
Are you sure about that? I looked at the statistics here....looks like China had 20 million deaths and Russia 25 million, but without those two the axis had way more deaths than the US and Britain.

For one thing, you are discounting China and Russia. I only discounted Russia. I don't see any good reason to discount China. Or Russia either.

On the other hand, I note that bad things happened to Job and his family without God's wrath being involved.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 11-11-2014 6:50 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

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Theodoric
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Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


(2)
Message 49 of 96 (741312)
11-11-2014 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
11-11-2014 11:51 AM


Re: one of these things is not like the other...
Seems that people can manipulate figures to get any result they want. Phat removing China and Russia from the Allies is self serving and there is not rational basis for it. They were allies against the Axis, plain and simple. I am sure there is some sort of feeling that Commies should not be counted as an ally, but China was not a godless commie state at that time.
Ignorance may be bliss but is no way to build a basis for an argument.

Edited by Theodoric, : Reworded first sentence


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 11:51 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
GDR
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Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 50 of 96 (741313)
11-11-2014 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
11-10-2014 4:31 PM


Faith writes:

We figure the Civil War was judgment because of slavery, which was the main issue it was fought over.

Once again this is the conclusion you come to when you worship an inerrant Bible instead of Jesus. Jesus, (and Paul for that matter), certainly would have opposed slavery in the US but He would have been just as opposed to the civil war.

Jesus lived in a country that virtually enslaved His fellow Jews and what did He do about it. He said love your enemy, turn the other cheek etc. His message was that the way you encounter injustice including slavery that we are to use God's message of peace and love.

It isn't always that clear about what the answer is to be but that is where we are called by Jesus to start. For example when we look at this war on ISIS how do we apply that message? Dropping bombs on people is not loving the ISIS fighters but maybe it is loving to those who are being persecuted by them. All we can do is to do our best to prayerfully work out a loving solution.

The Civil War was only God's judgement in the sense that it is the natural consequence of turning away from the commandment to love our neighbours as ourselves. Maybe the north should have purchased slaves and freed them. Maybe they should have provided safe places for slaves to escape to. Maybe they should have evangelized with the teachings of Jesus in the south where in many cases they espoused Christianity but them misused it in the way that fundamentalists or inerrantists do today.

Just maybe the Civil War was just another power grab with slavery being just another side issue.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 4:31 PM Faith has responded

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 Message 53 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 1:10 PM GDR has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10126
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 51 of 96 (741314)
11-11-2014 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
11-11-2014 8:38 AM


Re: one of these things is not like the other...
But the Nation, the US, came out stronger and wealthier than before the war. Remember Faith's claim was that the US Civil War was an example of God's Wrath on the nation for slavery.

I don't support Faith's position. But it is impossible to argue that the south did not get the worst end of the war. Losing had tremendous repercussions.

In some sense, the South never completely recovered from its beating. King Cotton was dead, and entire caste system was outlawed, and large portions of the south never figured out a substitute. A number of the deepest Southern states are among the poorest, leas educated, sucking off of the federal teat states in the Union.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 11-11-2014 8:38 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10126
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 52 of 96 (741315)
11-11-2014 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by GDR
11-11-2014 11:57 AM


Just maybe the Civil War was just another power grab with slavery being just another side issue.

I don't want to make this a referendum on the civil war. I think that there is actually an open thread in which we can do that. But the idea that slavery was just a side issue is complete, Lost Cause, horse ca-ca.

I see that you are Canadian. No harm done.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by GDR, posted 11-11-2014 11:57 AM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26739
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 96 (741320)
11-11-2014 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by GDR
11-11-2014 11:57 AM


Abraham Lincoln himself believed it was God's judgment for slavery, as I quoted him saying in his second inaugural address in Message 4, along with many Christians of his day and since. He even quoted the Bible. Perhaps if he were still around you'd lecture him about it too?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by GDR, posted 11-11-2014 11:57 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 1:32 PM Faith has responded
 Message 58 by GDR, posted 11-11-2014 3:22 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10126
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 54 of 96 (741324)
11-11-2014 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
11-11-2014 1:10 PM


Abraham Lincoln himself believed it was God's judgment for slavery

I know he's on Mount Rushmore and all, but Lincoln is not exactly known as a world class theologian.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 1:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 1:55 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26739
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 55 of 96 (741330)
11-11-2014 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by NoNukes
11-11-2014 1:32 PM


Neither were any of the American founders "worldclass theologians" but they all knew their Bible and had sat under Christian preaching all their lives and all of them quoted the Bible on many occasions as the best guide for the nation. This despite the fact that some of them weren't really Christians. But a Deist in those days wasn't what we think of as a Deist today. They believed that God was involved in the nation, they advocated prayer for instance and understood that God's laws ruled in this world. So did Abraham Lincoln, and they all say basic things all Christians agree with. Except perhaps modern "liberal" Christians.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 1:32 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 2:26 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10126
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 56 of 96 (741336)
11-11-2014 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
11-11-2014 1:55 PM


So did Abraham Lincoln, and they all say basic things all Christians agree with. Except perhaps modern "liberal" Christians.

So your claim is that we can distinguish between real Christians and liberals by their acceptance of this Civil War, wrath of God position?

You actually believe that this is a mainstream Christian position? Much is explained...


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 1:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 2:43 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26739
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 57 of 96 (741337)
11-11-2014 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by NoNukes
11-11-2014 2:26 PM


Lincoln's position is standard orthodox Christianity. So was Jefferson's when he said: this:

I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.

which is basically the same thing Lincoln was saying about God's judging the nation for slavery. Jefferson's complete statement is here:

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever. Commerce between master and slave is despotism. Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Establish a law for educating the common people. This it is the business of the state and on a general plan."

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 Message 56 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 2:26 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 58 of 96 (741340)
11-11-2014 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
11-11-2014 1:10 PM


Faith writes:

Abraham Lincoln himself believed it was God's judgment for slavery, as I quoted him saying in his second inaugural address in Message 4, along with many Christians of his day and since. He even quoted the Bible. Perhaps if he were still around you'd lecture him about it too?

Hmmm... so now we are to take the word of Lincoln over the words and life of Jesus.

I think it is a huge mistake to merge your faith and your nationalism, (and your politics for that matter), into one.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 1:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 3:28 PM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26739
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 59 of 96 (741341)
11-11-2014 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by GDR
11-11-2014 3:22 PM


Lincoln was quoting Jesus in that paragraph.

And what an absolutely absurd idea that we shouldn't appreciate the correct understanding of Christian teaching as applied by a leader of the nation. Two leaders quoted so far. And I may be able to dig up more. Absurd.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by GDR, posted 11-11-2014 3:22 PM GDR has responded

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 Message 60 by GDR, posted 11-11-2014 3:44 PM Faith has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 60 of 96 (741343)
11-11-2014 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
11-11-2014 3:28 PM


Faith writes:

Lincoln was quoting Jesus in that paragraph.
And what an absolutely absurd idea that we shouldn't appreciate the correct understanding of Christian teaching as applied by a leader of the nation. Two leaders quoted so far. And I may be able to dig up more. Absurd.

Lincoln was not quoting Jesus but simply saying God wants all men to be free. Of course I believe that too. However, there is nothing in what Lincoln said in that quote that justifies the Civil War. He says that all men should be free. There are alternatives to accomplishing that other than war.

So you believe that because Lincoln was president that we should take his word as gospel. I assume you would apply that to President Obama as well. Actually Obama in, (i think it was his acceptance speech but I'm not sure), quoted the Bible with the quote that I use as a signature.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 3:28 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 3:52 PM GDR has responded

    
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