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Author Topic:   The US Civil War as an example of God's Wrath.
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 96 (741452)
11-12-2014 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by ringo
11-12-2014 11:52 AM


was the fact that the states had their own armies ("militias").

Cute, but probably wrong. Both sides raised real armies pretty quickly. Those armies did most of the fighting. At best the militias were ready reserves. Not a flaw, in my opinion, but perhaps Canadians feel differently. The militias/national guard still have essential roles.

Maybe the Civil War was God's punishment for having a flawed constitution.

The constitution had a number of flaws, but the primary one was that support for slavery and and inequality was built into it. We've since amended the constitution to remove much of those issues.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 11-12-2014 11:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 11-12-2014 12:19 PM NoNukes has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13424
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 77 of 96 (741453)
11-12-2014 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by NoNukes
11-12-2014 12:14 PM


NoNukes writes:

Both sides raised real armies pretty quickly. Those armies did most of the fighting.


If the state militias hadn't seized the federal arsenals right after secession, there wouldn't have been anything to fight with.

NoNukes writes:

We've since amended the constitution to remove much of those issues.


I'm glad to hear it's perfect now.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by NoNukes, posted 11-12-2014 12:14 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Theodoric, posted 11-12-2014 1:25 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 89 by NoNukes, posted 11-13-2014 12:39 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 78 of 96 (741455)
11-12-2014 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
11-11-2014 3:52 PM


I believe the fact should be respected that an American President expressed a true Biblical precept that was well recognized and accepted by Christians in general in his day and that he was one of many Presidents who understood and quoted the Bible as guide to the nation back in the day.

It's interesting in itself, but it's not really evidence. Julius Caesar thought he was under the special protection of the goddess Venus --- and he won. Hitler thought that he was following Jesus --- and he lost. Muhammad thought that God was telling him what to do --- and he won. The Catholics in the sixteenth century and thereabouts thought they were doing God's work by fighting against Protestants --- and sometimes they won. The Crusaders thought they were doing God's work by crusading --- and they totally lost. And, of course, the Confederates thought that God was on their side. All theists think that God is on their side, and all theists think that God must have wanted the war or it wouldn't have happened. So it's not particularly evidence of what God was thinking to quote what Lincoln thought on this subject --- even though he won, and even though we're rooting for him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 3:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 12:41 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25794
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 79 of 96 (741456)
11-12-2014 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Dr Adequate
11-12-2014 12:33 PM


The only thing I claimed the beliefs of Lincoln and Jefferson were evidence for is that God's judgment on nations was standard Biblical theology and not some oddball idea of a minor "sect."

Lincoln was also famous for saying that the important thing is whether we are on God's side, essentially debunking the whole idea of His being on "our" side, so your claims about what "all theists" think is not true.

Who won doesn't prove much in itself. It could be God's judgment against the enemy rather than His approval of your beliefs. The Assyrians and the Babylonians destroyed much of Israel and Judah, but they were God's scourge against God's people for their sins, and God specifically says not to believe He favored them because they would come under judgment themselves in due time.

Sometimes (often?) aggression against others is sin in itself and will eventually be punished, no matter who "won."

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-12-2014 12:33 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-12-2014 12:50 PM Faith has responded
 Message 84 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-12-2014 2:43 PM Faith has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11650
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 80 of 96 (741458)
11-12-2014 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
11-12-2014 12:41 PM


The only thing I claimed the beliefs of Lincoln and Jefferson were evidence for is that God's judgment on nations was standard Biblical theology and not some oddball idea of a minor "sect."

Yeah but Lincoln was just talking colloquially and you're acting like God was playing pieces in chess game.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 12:41 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 1:49 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 81 of 96 (741463)
11-12-2014 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
11-12-2014 12:19 PM


Before the Civil War the United States had almost no standing army. To alleviate the need for a trained military force each state had a militia(National Guard). In reality few states had a true active militia.
A number of arsenals were seized by irregular forces that were not official militias. Also, some of the arsenals were seized post secession by Confederate Army forces or militias designated by the new confederate states. To place any blame on the militia system seems kinda silly.

Also, remember most of these arsenals were lightly manned. The Little Rock, AR arsenal had 65 men, the Missouri Arsenal had 3 men. The group that seized the Missouri Arsenal were not associated with any governmental unit at all. They were marauding southern sympathizers.

The arsenals were so lightly defended that it was not necessary to use an organized military force to seize them. After secession most were hundreds of miles behind enemy lines. Their seizure was inevitable, militias or not.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 11-12-2014 12:19 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25794
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 82 of 96 (741466)
11-12-2014 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by New Cat's Eye
11-12-2014 12:50 PM


Pieces in a chess game? I don't think so. Some others here have treated it that way, but I don't think it's all that easy to know the particulars of God's judgment on nations because we can't know all the complex interwoven causes that God sees. I think in the case of the Civil War it had to be God's judgment but beyond noting that the South lost it dramatically I haven't suggested anything about the specifics of the war as God's will. Again it's too complex for us to figure out beyond the blanket assessment that it WAS judgment.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-12-2014 12:50 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-12-2014 2:14 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11650
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 83 of 96 (741469)
11-12-2014 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
11-12-2014 1:49 PM


Pieces in a chess game? I don't think so. Some others here have treated it that way, but I don't think it's all that easy to know the particulars of God's judgment on nations because we can't know all the complex interwoven causes that God sees. I think in the case of the Civil War it had to be God's judgment but beyond noting that the South lost it dramatically I haven't suggested anything about the specifics of the war as God's will. Again it's too complex for us to figure out beyond the blanket assessment that it WAS judgment.

Then you're not saying anything at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 1:49 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 84 of 96 (741471)
11-12-2014 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
11-12-2014 12:41 PM


The only thing I claimed the beliefs of Lincoln and Jefferson were evidence for is that God's judgment on nations was standard Biblical theology ...

Well, if you like. Though it would be hard, I think, for you to prove that Lincoln and Jefferson were standard Biblical theologians. If you just want to prove that "God's judgment on nations was standard Biblical theology" then you might cite more standard Christian theologians.

But if you want to prove that "God's judgment on nations" was the actual cause of the civil war, then you need to do better than that. You need to prove that that's actually true. This is a long way from proving that Lincoln thought it was true.

So it may be true that that's what Lincoln thought, but what Lincoln thought has nothing to do with it. Lincoln may have been wrong, like Hitler and Julius Caesar may have been wrong. His opinion isn't evidence.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 12:41 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 3:07 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25794
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 85 of 96 (741472)
11-12-2014 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Dr Adequate
11-12-2014 2:43 PM


Since their beliefs were standard Biblical theology, as I said, and I know that because it's what I've learned from every orthodox source of theology I've encountered over two and a half decades, then it is true, period. I have no interest in proving to you that it is standard Biblical theology, or that it is true, take it or leave it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-12-2014 2:43 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-12-2014 3:34 PM Faith has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11650
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 86 of 96 (741475)
11-12-2014 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
11-12-2014 3:07 PM


Nuh-uh, you are wrong.

I'm not going to prove it to you. But you ARE wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 3:07 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 5:40 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25794
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 87 of 96 (741491)
11-12-2014 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by New Cat's Eye
11-12-2014 3:34 PM


You and another here are quite the parrots lately. Run out of original material?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-12-2014 3:34 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Theodoric, posted 11-13-2014 12:01 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 90 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-13-2014 12:08 PM Faith has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 88 of 96 (741522)
11-13-2014 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Faith
11-12-2014 5:40 PM


I agree with Cat Sci you are wrong. So please prove you are not wrong.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 5:40 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 96 (741525)
11-13-2014 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
11-12-2014 12:19 PM


We've since amended the constitution to remove much of those issues.

I'm glad to hear it's perfect now.

Didn't make that claim. I said that the constitution was amended to address some specific important issues. And even then I said that they were mostly addressed.

Yes I did see the smiley, but I also noted that you removed all of the context from what I said. Now that's funny.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 11-12-2014 12:19 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11650
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 90 of 96 (741600)
11-13-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Faith
11-12-2014 5:40 PM


Run out of original material?

We've run out of original material TO REPLY TO.

I mean, you've been here 13 years and you're still saying the same old stuff:

"God said it, I believe it, that settles it."

Well whoopty-do

ABE:

How many topics do you think you've drug off-topic with discussion about the flood?

100?

Edited by Cat Sci, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 5:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 11-13-2014 12:39 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
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