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Author Topic:   Addiction By Definition
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4545
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


(1)
Message 106 of 174 (794988)
12-03-2016 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
12-01-2016 4:52 PM


Re: Day 137
It's possible God helped, even indirectly. Perhaps He knew you would come to a stage of maturity where you could realise that you are the one in control of your environment and not it over you.

This is ultimately a deception we play on ourselves, we tell ourselves things like, "I am not in control of this", or, "I just can't help it", or, " I just need a drink real bad today".

Did you need a drink real bad on the 2nd day after your birth? Could you help it before you became an alcoholic? Were you in control of alcoholism before you became an addict?

Yes, you were, meaning that logically you can be in control of it again, as you now are.

I think personally (not that I am any expert) that these new positive thoughts you are having are good, because it seems you are feeling the benefits of health.

So now if you have a bad day and tell yourself, "I can't resist today", really I don't see how you can pass off that deception by fooling yourself because you are LIVING PROOF that YOU are in control.

It's good for you to remember the benefits of being free from it, and all of this positivity you now have because I doubt you would feel like that if you were addicted.

(I'm not trying to play the know it all, I have my own problems, really I am just repeating what a psychologist told me, about how we deceive ourselves into thinking we can't resist X. An absurd deception really. Another example is when we say, "I just can't stand this anymore". How stupid we are! For we have been standing it up until now, for we are still alive! You are standing it right now, and have been for years.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 12-01-2016 4:52 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 12-04-2016 2:11 AM mike the wiz has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9259
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 107 of 174 (795015)
12-04-2016 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by mike the wiz
12-03-2016 8:59 AM


Day 140
MTW writes:

It's possible God helped, even indirectly.

I believe that God definitely helped. He gave me discernment to discriminate among the wisdom of the world and the desires and beliefs of my heart. It was I who had to decide on the narrow path which is emotionally painful...the path of sobriety. I also had to reject the broad easy path of feeding my carnal nature what it desires on a daily basis. Much of the modern world follows this broad easy path. I don't believe God does things for us. He always provides a way out, however.

Recovery and change are all about science, Mike. There is no hocus pocus involved. It is also about more than simple positive afffirmation or willpower. When the brain becomes addicted the frontal lobes heat up, the neuro plasticitity changes, and the brain changes. Addicts do not simply stop their behaviors easily. It can be done, but it requires a strong awareness of the difference between the addictive feeling and the desire to stop. Fewer than 10% of aaddicts can just stop.

... you can be in control of it again, as you now are.
Yes, but the process involves the brain actually changing back to its state before the addictive behavior changed it. it takes 5 months for the brain to begin to change.

This is day # 140, and I am mildly depressed wondering where all the promise of joy has gone. This too shall pass eventually. Right now the emotions are intense.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by mike the wiz, posted 12-03-2016 8:59 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by RAZD, posted 12-04-2016 9:13 AM Phat has responded
 Message 109 by NoNukes, posted 12-05-2016 12:19 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 112 by mike the wiz, posted 12-13-2016 2:43 PM Phat has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 108 of 174 (795021)
12-04-2016 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
12-04-2016 2:11 AM


Re: Day 140
This is day # 140, and I am mildly depressed wondering where all the promise of joy has gone. This too shall pass eventually. Right now the emotions are intense.

Woot 20 weeks, 5 months ....

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 12-04-2016 2:11 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 12-09-2016 3:32 AM RAZD has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9314
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 109 of 174 (795044)
12-05-2016 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
12-04-2016 2:11 AM


Re: Day 140
This is day # 140, and I am mildly depressed wondering where all the promise of joy has gone.

You have every excuse for being joyful. By your own words, God is working with you to make a change in your life, and the change is manifest. Perhaps that is something to pray about. It may be that other circumstances are preventing you from feeling your current accomplishment.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 12-04-2016 2:11 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9259
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 110 of 174 (795231)
12-09-2016 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by RAZD
12-04-2016 9:13 AM


Day 145
5 months will be day 150 (30x5) I have been healing. One sign is that occasionally I will cry...and I rarely cry. Once was at my counselors as I was describing my past. Another time I was with a friend praying and we both started crying. The emotions that triggered it were long buried and unconnected to any event. Consciously, at least.

The healing is taking a lot longer than I first thought, but Im willing to spend a good year or more and get complete healing rather than partial healing followed by relapse.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by RAZD, posted 12-04-2016 9:13 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by RAZD, posted 12-10-2016 8:28 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 111 of 174 (795275)
12-10-2016 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
12-09-2016 3:32 AM


Re: Day 145
... One sign is that occasionally I will cry...and I rarely cry. ...

Crying is good.

The healing is taking a lot longer than I first thought, but Im willing to spend a good year or more and get complete healing rather than partial healing followed by relapse.

I've heard that it takes 3 years before it is less conscious avoidance effort and more just unconscious avoidance behavior.

:hugs:


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 12-09-2016 3:32 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4545
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


(1)
Message 112 of 174 (795487)
12-13-2016 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
12-04-2016 2:11 AM


Re: Day 140
I wouldn't claim it was, "hocus pocus" Phat, I am not some kind of anti-theistic pagan that thinks crystals will heal you, you know.

Don't fall for the stereotype of creationists, the chances are I am the one to first look for a natural explanation before many people do. In fact my sister thought a ghost video was genuine recently and I told her my belief was that the objects being moved were "out of camera shot" meaning they were likely being pushed by someone, and it was all a little too perfect. She was pretty upset with me for my explanations of the video, but later on she had to admit I had deduced pretty much every stunt's natural cause, correctly. I think stone cold facts, ARE MIRACULOUS even if they are not supernatural. That is to say, when you look at an X-ray of your brain, it is the brain that is miraculous, even though it is made from natural substance, in that as a design it is the most sophisticated computer ever invented.

But I don't think the miraculous is, "hocus pocus" either if you are alluding to that, for as Christians we do believe God has omnipotence and can do the miraculously impossible. For example, when He raised Christ from the dead. Yes, we believe this by faith, but that is okay to admit. I don't feel any great need to prostrate myself before those who use, "science" as an all-powerful epithet, when a lot of the time their own knowledge of science is highly amateur and they only appeal to the word so as to associate themselves with it's authority. (ad verecundiam) To me science is just a word, like, "maths" or, "english". A tool that has a use.

But when you start using hammers to murder, I don't blame the tool Phat, I blame the one wielding it as a weapon. (abuse).

Phat writes:

I believe that God definitely helped. He gave me discernment to discriminate among the wisdom of the world and the desires and beliefs of my heart. It was I who had to decide on the narrow path which is emotionally painful...the path of sobriety. I also had to reject the broad easy path of feeding my carnal nature what it desires on a daily basis. Much of the modern world follows this broad easy path.

That's good. All I am saying is that ultimately we are in control of ourselves. Ultimately a bottle of beer isn't going to put itself into your mouth and make you drink it.

But I am not saying your "science" is wrong anyway, I am sure those things are based on scientific study, I'm fine with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 12-04-2016 2:11 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 12-17-2016 8:16 AM mike the wiz has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9259
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 113 of 174 (795811)
12-17-2016 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by mike the wiz
12-13-2016 2:43 PM


Looking Back Over The Past Year
phat in January 2016 writes:

The Four Step Program can be used with or without a therapist and evidence shows that by understanding what is happening medically, one can literally change their brain biochemically over time. There are MRI images that confirmed this. We can (hypothetically) use logic and reason to control our behavior in spite of the medical disorder - but that doesn't seem to be working reliably. Before, when I merely relabeled the dysfunction as "The Beast" it was never enough for me---perhaps because it never made logical sense. I knew that the beast arose from the Limbic Brain but I never was able to vilify my own beast enough.
Understanding that it is a medical condition basically gives me no excuses---apart from suicidal tendencies--to keep being obsessive and compulsive. One key is what jar used to always say to me---that I preferred fantasy over reality. I have met the enemy and he is I.


Today,December 17th,2016 as I look back on the previous year and evaluate my quest for sobriety and apply what I have learned about sobriety and the mechanism through which the brain(my brain) is healing, I will correct my own thinking and understanding on the matter 11 months ago.
The Four Step program can be used with or without an external therapist, but the inner observer...the internal therapist is absolutely crucial...in fact it is a part of the process itself.
I said back then that "we can hypothetically use logic and reason to control our behavior in spite of the medical disorder but that...did not seem to be working reliably...now, with 153 days of sobriety under my belt, I can confirm that the brain does change and that sobriety itself was the key that allowed the change to occur. I mentioned that I was never able to vilify my Beast enough...but now understand that the disease is in fact a medical condition rather than a flaw in my personality. I had read and understood this fact logically before...as Post # 61 suggests, but had never actually experienced any lasting sobriety before July 18th,2016...the day after losing my job.

In September, I said this:

My hope and prayer is that this time--in 2016--i can achieve my goal and report my experience back to all of you.
Now, with 153 days of sobriety under my belt, I can report that my brain is changing! I am in fact looking more towards a lifestyle change rather than a program with limited goals. The issue is not so much about how many days sober I am, but more towards actualizing the goal of mindfulness.

Also I mentioned that a person cannot recover without feeling safe. Being unemployed for 5 months, I really didnt feel totally safe...though as a believer I should have a bit more trust in Gods blessing both past,present,and future. I had been unemployed for 5 months as of yesterday. Around two years ago, I recalled having a dream that specifically had me getting my job at Safeway back...but at the time the dream confused me because I still had my job and was secure...I felt safe. I can joyfully report that yesterday, after 5 months to the day... I was offered my job back! ! (Settlement meeting between Safeway and Local 7 after two previous steps had been denied)And yes...I attribute this to God. Perhaps a skeptic could say that logically it could be for other reasons, but my personal belief is that God was involved in blessing me and equipping me with wisdom.

Now I can feel safe again...save more money..(no gambling any more) and my hope and prayer is that my ongoing healing and recovery...through 2017...will be discussed here and that we all can learn something new about recovery science. I believe that God gave me the strength and wisdom to recover...and I believe that I had to initiate my recovery...and I am under no illusions that I have recovered fully yet. Stay tuned....

Edited by Phat, : edit

Edited by Phat, : meh


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by mike the wiz, posted 12-13-2016 2:43 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by mike the wiz, posted 12-17-2016 10:43 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4545
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 114 of 174 (795814)
12-17-2016 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
12-17-2016 8:16 AM


Re: Looking Back Over The Past Year
Phat writes:

I can joyfully report that yesterday, after 5 months to the day... I was offered my job back! ! (Settlement meeting between Safeway and Local 7 after two previous steps had been denied)And yes...I attribute this to God. Perhaps a skeptic could say that logically it could be for other reasons, but my personal belief is that God was involved in blessing me and equipping me with wisdom.

And I think that is a wonderful testimony and I am very happy for you Phat. I know what you mean about, "attributing it to God". I do that when I even know that sometimes I could be wrong.

I myself attribute good things to God but I know sometimes I can be mistaken because of confirmation-bias. Sometimes I will thank God for X, then X will change, and become a curse, which means it can't have been from God.

There is no way to differentiate, but as believers I think it's okay to attribute things to God.

I remember a long time ago now, when I was on benefits as I had no job, they said to me, "no, you don't qualify for benefit." I remember tearing up the piece of paper and saying, "I don't rely on you I rely on God" and then God very quickly provided finance for me in a way so uncannily out-of-the-blue, from a source you just couldn't imagine and a fiction writer couldn't have invented.

So I definitely believe if we act by faith and we basically believe and walk by faith that God does reward us/bless us.

Phat I don't know how busy you are but can I write you a personal message or better still could you PM me when you have time to? (there's no rush).

Phat writes:

Perhaps a skeptic could say that logically it could be for other reasons, but my personal belief is that God was involved in blessing me and equipping me with wisdom.

I agree 100%.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 12-17-2016 8:16 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 12-17-2016 12:20 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28424
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 115 of 174 (795815)
12-17-2016 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by mike the wiz
12-17-2016 10:43 AM


Re: Looking Back Over The Past Year
mtw writes:

Sometimes I will thank God for X, then X will change, and become a curse, which means it can't have been from God.

Remember God often sends curses as well. Ask Pharaoh, Lot's wife and Job.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by mike the wiz, posted 12-17-2016 10:43 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by mike the wiz, posted 12-17-2016 1:47 PM jar has acknowledged this reply
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4545
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 116 of 174 (795816)
12-17-2016 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by jar
12-17-2016 12:20 PM


Re: Looking Back Over The Past Year
Jar writes:

Remember God often sends curses as well. Ask Pharaoh, Lot's wife and Job.

I used the wrong word when I said, "curse", but if God does allow bad....

Romans 8;28: And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, and are called according to His purpose.

I like what Joseph said when he was taken as a slave into Egypt, when he later spoke to his brothers and they thought Joseph would blame them for what they did but Joseph said, "you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good."

It's true that God can allow bad things to happen, or at least, temporarily bad things, such as with Job. But that was a test for Job, probably the only serious one he had in his life and afterward he would be glad of it, but not during.

Incredibly Joyce Meyer who was assaulted by her father, said she was almost glad it happened because of her Christian testimony. A pretty darn unbelievable thing for anyone to say, but AFTERWARD when we see how God can use bad things and turn them for good use, then it's obviously a very different perspective. For no trial seems profitable at the time of experience;

Hebrews 12:11; All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

So I didn't mean to imply that "only good things can come from God", I just meant that things that fall to pieces can't be sent by God with the intention for us to keep those things. (It's hard to explain because there are so many subtle variables to consider.) Perhaps the best way of saying it is if you ask God for a car and it breaks down then gets put on the scrapper then God can't have meant you to have that car for life but immediately when you receive the car for £1000 less that expected, it's only human to say, "Oh God, THANKYOU!" the day before it breaks down.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

Edited by mike the wiz, : spelling errors as usual, because of fast typing. Old habit die hard.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 12-17-2016 12:20 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9259
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 117 of 174 (795817)
12-17-2016 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by jar
12-17-2016 12:20 PM


Re: Looking Back Over The Past Year Day 153
Seeing as how my topic is about addiction, perhaps we could discuss the idea of religion as a possible addiction. At what point does belief and subsequent action become addictive rather than prescriptive?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 12-17-2016 12:20 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by mike the wiz, posted 12-17-2016 3:24 PM Phat has responded
 Message 119 by jar, posted 12-17-2016 4:58 PM Phat has responded
 Message 120 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2016 5:31 PM Phat has responded
 Message 128 by RAZD, posted 12-18-2016 3:09 PM Phat has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4545
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 118 of 174 (795818)
12-17-2016 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
12-17-2016 2:31 PM


Re: Looking Back Over The Past Year Day 153
Phat writes:

Seeing as how my topic is about addiction, perhaps we could discuss the idea of religion as a possible addiction. At what point does belief and subsequent action become addictive rather than prescriptive?

I guess the problem with the question is the term, "religion". It seems to me any debate which uses the term, "religion" will almost be 100% destined to commit the sweeping-generalisation-fallacy, by applying general behaviour to a particular religious individual.

I guess human-reason can be an addiction. That is to say - can we get overly concerned with what WE, according to limited human reason, infer about God? If we, with our limited intellects, choose our intellect, and choose to know better than God then aren't we addicted to moulding God into our own image?

Ultimately we then become God and play God, we tell God what He is to wear today and how He is to reason and what He would do if He were here, etc...

The problem is this does not work because by definition God is omniscient and Proverbs 3 says, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding".

But why? Why can't we rely on human reason?

I have the answer Phat. I have an ability to reason and I can state as someone with that ability, that there is a definite limit to reason. Human-reason can only take us so far but we simply can't understand the actions of an Almighty reasoner.

For God's thoughts are like Isaiah says, "as the heavens are higher than the earth", so is His thoughts higher than our thoughts.

So when we read something confusing in the bible, God does not want us to jump to conclusions based on limited human reason, nor does He want us to mutilate the bible and doubt what He has said.

Beware the addiction of choosing a limited, subjective and fallible intellect over an all-knowing, unlimited, infallible God.

"His understanding is unsearchable".

In a game of chess who will win? The one with unsearchable understanding or the puny human, with limited abilities?

Phat if you think I'm tough to refute, what then can we say about the one who invented the atp synthase or the parabolic trajectory for the Archer fish's water arrows? The one that makes the sea anemone darts EDIBLE to sea slugs. The one that made the contraflow, two-stroke, mass-exchange lung, the one who made photosynthesis, abscission, apoptosis, and metamorphosis.

Or are you going to trust the guy that tells you Jesus is Allah, who is Father Christmas and is also a she, that doesn't exist..

For if we are to have that kind of belief, isn't that akin to believing this following description of a criminal?

"He was a bald midget, that was running completely naked through the streets wearing a leather jacket, was black, and about six foot five inches tall with long hair."

(No offence Jar).

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 12-17-2016 2:31 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 12-18-2016 7:55 AM mike the wiz has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28424
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 119 of 174 (795820)
12-17-2016 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
12-17-2016 2:31 PM


Re: Looking Back Over The Past Year Day 153
I don't think you can call any thing an addiction. Religion, alcohol, drugs, gambling ...things are not the addiction. Some religious behavior could be an addiction, misuse of alcohol or gambling or drugs could be an addiction.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 12-17-2016 2:31 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 12-18-2016 7:43 AM jar has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4398
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 120 of 174 (795821)
12-17-2016 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
12-17-2016 2:31 PM


Re: Looking Back Over The Past Year Day 153
Phat writes:

Seeing as how my topic is about addiction, perhaps we could discuss the idea of religion as a possible addiction. At what point does belief and subsequent action become addictive rather than prescriptive?

Like all addictions, it's when you feel that can't do without it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 12-17-2016 2:31 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 12-18-2016 7:58 AM Tangle has responded

  
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