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Author Topic:   Addiction By Definition
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 121 of 179 (795831)
12-18-2016 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by jar
12-17-2016 4:58 PM


Re: Looking Back Day 154
jar writes:

I don't think you can call any thing an addiction. Religion, alcohol, drugs, gambling ...things are not the addiction. Some religious behavior could be an addiction, misuse of alcohol or gambling or drugs could be an addiction.

I see your point. The recovery is recovery of the individual. The addiction is a disease in the brain and thought process of the individual.

Alcohol is not the problem.The problem is the individuals response to alcohol.

I would say at this point, however..(Today is #154) that I could very easily label the tendency to gamble and the subsequent addiction in my mind as a demon. I preferred fantasy over reality. I felt entitled to something...be it from society or from God.

Granted the addiction was a medical disorder stemming from my willful misuse of a habit. Perhaps I should ask myself some questions.

  • Do I want full recovery or do I still feel entitled in some other way?
  • Is the notion of entitlement itself part of the addictive process?
  • In regards to religion...specifically belief in a living Christ and a living hope...am I still expecting a payoff?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 119 by jar, posted 12-17-2016 4:58 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 124 by mike the wiz, posted 12-18-2016 8:17 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 126 by jar, posted 12-18-2016 8:42 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
  • Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9313
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 122 of 179 (795832)
    12-18-2016 7:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 118 by mike the wiz
    12-17-2016 3:24 PM


    Re: Looking Back Over The Past Year
    MTW writes:

    I guess human-reason can be an addiction. That is to say - can we get overly concerned with what WE, according to limited human reason, infer about God? If we, with our limited intellects, choose our intellect, and choose to know better than God then aren't we addicted to moulding God into our own image?

    Or in how we interpret scripture...to cherry pick into fitting the promise to our own desired end. Interesting line of thought. As a believer, it is necessary that I examine myself. Celebrate Recovery encourages this.
    MTW writes:

    I have the answer Phat. I have an ability to reason and I can state as someone with that ability, that there is a definite limit to reason. Human-reason can only take us so far but we simply can't understand the actions of an Almighty reasoner.
    For God's thoughts are like Isaiah says, "as the heavens are higher than the earth", so is His thoughts higher than our thoughts.
    So when we read something confusing in the bible, God does not want us to jump to conclusions based on limited human reason, nor does He want us to mutilate the bible and doubt what He has said.
    Beware the addiction of choosing a limited, subjective and fallible intellect over an all-knowing, unlimited, infallible God.

    So in other words are you saying that we need to beware of reading our own desired answers into the scripture?

    As an aside...I firmly believe in the infallibility of scripture provided it is taken in context.

    Wiz writes:

    Or are you going to trust the guy that tells you Jesus is Allah, who is Father Christmas and is also a she, that doesn't exist..

    Hopefully I will ultimately trust Jesus Himself. Perhaps my question to you is this: If God could speak to a human through a donkey, can he speak to us through an atheist?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 118 by mike the wiz, posted 12-17-2016 3:24 PM mike the wiz has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 125 by mike the wiz, posted 12-18-2016 8:22 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9313
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 123 of 179 (795833)
    12-18-2016 7:58 AM
    Reply to: Message 120 by Tangle
    12-17-2016 5:31 PM


    Day 154 Tangling with addictions
    Phat writes:

    Seeing as how my topic is about addiction, perhaps we could discuss the idea of religion as a possible addiction. At what point does belief and subsequent action become addictive rather than prescriptive?


    Tangle writes:

    Like all addictions, it's when you feel that can't do without it.

    What is it?

    The idea of God or God Himself?

    What would I replace this addiction with?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 120 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2016 5:31 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 127 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2016 1:03 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    mike the wiz
    Member
    Posts: 4554
    From: u.k
    Joined: 05-24-2003


    (1)
    Message 124 of 179 (795835)
    12-18-2016 8:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
    12-18-2016 7:43 AM


    Re: Looking Back Day 154
    Phat bless you with a mighty blessing. Seriously, "good on you". You are a courageous guy, plain and simple. What character you're showing here. Brilliant! I mean that with all my meaning!

    For goodness sake, KEEP GOING! God is showing you the way to victory, and it's so obvious He's taking you there!


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 121 by Phat, posted 12-18-2016 7:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    mike the wiz
    Member
    Posts: 4554
    From: u.k
    Joined: 05-24-2003


    (1)
    Message 125 of 179 (795837)
    12-18-2016 8:22 AM
    Reply to: Message 122 by Phat
    12-18-2016 7:55 AM


    Re: Looking Back Over The Past Year
    Phat writes:

    Hopefully I will ultimately trust Jesus Himself. Perhaps my question to you is this: If God could speak to a human through a donkey, can he speak to us through an atheist?

    I would say IMO, (not that I am any great sage so I'm just answering because you asked) that He can speak through an atheist if what the atheist is saying is not contrary to something He has clearly said.

    So for example, Galileo, if he was an atheist, was not "wrong" to say that the heavens are not orbiting the earth. (IIRC, my memory is foggy about such things).

    So it depends on the what the subject is. If it is a spiritual matter, we can't listen to atheists because the NT says "nor can the natural man understand spiritual things for they are foolishness to them, for they are spiritually discerned".

    That is to say, God imparts revelatory-knowledge to those who are born again of the Holy Spirit, which is not intellectually derived information.

    So we have to be very careful. There are also human motives very much at play, even within science, great biases. I know an agnostic I am conversing with who can also see this, in his own words he said to me, "they're not allowing a dent in evolution".

    It's not hard to figure out why, Phat.

    Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 122 by Phat, posted 12-18-2016 7:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 28840
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.0


    (1)
    Message 126 of 179 (795842)
    12-18-2016 8:42 AM
    Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
    12-18-2016 7:43 AM


    Re: Looking Back Day 154
    Great questions you should ask yourself.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 121 by Phat, posted 12-18-2016 7:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 4647
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.3


    (3)
    Message 127 of 179 (795859)
    12-18-2016 1:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
    12-18-2016 7:58 AM


    Re: Day 154 Tangling with addictions
    Phat writes:

    What is it?
    The idea of God or God Himself?

    I have no idea Phat, I think only you can answer that. All I can say is that when you stop thinking about God, praying, attending church and all the paraphenalia of a religious addiction you suddenly liberate a load of time and space for new stuff and you feel responsible for your own life.

    What would I replace this addiction with?

    Fishing.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 123 by Phat, posted 12-18-2016 7:58 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    RAZD
    Member
    Posts: 18478
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 128 of 179 (795873)
    12-18-2016 3:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
    12-17-2016 2:31 PM


    Religious addiction?
    Seeing as how my topic is about addiction, perhaps we could discuss the idea of religion as a possible addiction. At what point does belief and subsequent action become addictive rather than prescriptive?

    Well, my two-sense reply is (a) any behavior engaged in that becomes an obsession and disrupts the lives of others could be considered an addiction, and (b) we need to compare this to delusions:

    de•lu•sion -noun (American Heritage Dictionary 2009)

    1. a. The act or process of deluding.
      b. The state of being deluded.
    2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
    3. Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.

    ... where there is a world of difference between (2), having a false belief, and (3) ignoring evidence the belief is false.

    IMHO the concept/s of god/s is non-falsifiable, just certain beliefs (young earth, WW flood, etc) that come from certain interpretations of dogma or the teaching of others.

    Believing you must pray 3 times a day can be seen as possibly interfering or disrupting the lives of others , but wouldn't be delusional ... unless it can be shown to be false.

    Likewise, wandering around in a moonstruck haze can be seen as possibly interfering or disrupting the lives of others , but wouldn't be delusional ... unless love can be shown to be false.

    Enjoy


    we are limited in our ability to understand
    by our ability to understand
    RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
    ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
    to share.


    • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 117 by Phat, posted 12-17-2016 2:31 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 129 by NoNukes, posted 12-18-2016 5:00 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
     Message 134 by Phat, posted 01-02-2017 4:55 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

      
    NoNukes
    Member
    Posts: 9550
    From: Central NC USA
    Joined: 08-13-2010
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 129 of 179 (795889)
    12-18-2016 5:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 128 by RAZD
    12-18-2016 3:09 PM


    Re: Religious addiction?
    Believing you must pray 3 times a day can be seen as possibly interfering or disrupting the lives of others

    Please explain. If I pray 3 times a day, that will interfere with your life in what way? Disrupts your life in what fashion? Depriving you of the ability to live in a prayer free world?


    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

    Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 128 by RAZD, posted 12-18-2016 3:09 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 130 by jar, posted 12-18-2016 5:07 PM NoNukes has responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 28840
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.0


    (2)
    Message 130 of 179 (795890)
    12-18-2016 5:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 129 by NoNukes
    12-18-2016 5:00 PM


    Re: Religious addiction?
    It depends on how you do it. If it needs to be done at a time when you are expected to be in a meeting but instead must be on a prayer rug facing Mecca or if you need to have your serpent with you or make a burnt offering other than microwave popcorn sure it could be disruptive.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 129 by NoNukes, posted 12-18-2016 5:00 PM NoNukes has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 131 by NoNukes, posted 12-19-2016 12:52 AM jar has responded

      
    NoNukes
    Member
    Posts: 9550
    From: Central NC USA
    Joined: 08-13-2010
    Member Rating: 3.1


    (1)
    Message 131 of 179 (795904)
    12-19-2016 12:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 130 by jar
    12-18-2016 5:07 PM


    Re: Religious addiction?
    If it needs to be done at a time when you are expected to be in a meeting but instead must be on a prayer rug facing Mecca

    If you are skipping meetings in order to pray, you are probably going to be let go for missing meetings. As for your comment about serpents, isn't the real probably the pet and not the prayer?

    I take your comment to mean that generally speaking you agree that there is not all that much substance to the idea that one person praying is an imposition on another persons rights and that the real problem is extreme behavior of the type that would be a problem associated with any activity. If you need to play video games instead of attending a meeting then your video game is an imposition.


    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

    Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 130 by jar, posted 12-18-2016 5:07 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 132 by jar, posted 12-19-2016 8:15 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 28840
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.0


    (2)
    Message 132 of 179 (795907)
    12-19-2016 8:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 131 by NoNukes
    12-19-2016 12:52 AM


    Re: Religious addiction?
    NN writes:

    I take your comment to mean that generally speaking you agree that there is not all that much substance to the idea that one person praying is an imposition on another persons rights and that the real problem is extreme behavior of the type that would be a problem associated with any activity.

    Correct. Praying like gambling or eating or drugs or most any THING is not the addiction. When how you perform or use the THING interferes with normal behavior, with other people, with family, with work, with your health then that behavior can be the issue or addiction.

    It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing...


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 131 by NoNukes, posted 12-19-2016 12:52 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 136 by Phat, posted 01-13-2017 1:05 PM jar has not yet responded
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9313
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 2.3


    (1)
    Message 133 of 179 (796455)
    12-30-2016 9:30 AM
    Reply to: Message 44 by New Cat's Eye
    05-29-2015 2:52 PM


    Truckin Along Day 166
    New Cats Eye writes:

    Addictions are for things that you don't need to live, but you think you need them anyway.

    Furthermore, addiction can be seen as a medical disorder. MRI imaging confirms this.
    I'm glad you found something better. How's it coming along?

    Day 166 today. Many challenges in life which bring up the repressed feelings. I am unused to allowing feelings to occur...especially when they are painful. I am optimistic for the long term, however.

    By the way...I saw this in your new topic:

    New Cat Sci writes:

    Anyways, my life has been privileged, and I have been successful. And yet, I find myself unhappy because I am battling addiction. It turns out that trying to solve emotional problems with a scientific approach hasn't done me any good over the years, and I am not that well.

    Can you share what your addiction is? You can PM me if you feel more comfortable.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 44 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-29-2015 2:52 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9313
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 2.3


    (2)
    Message 134 of 179 (796663)
    01-02-2017 4:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 128 by RAZD
    12-18-2016 3:09 PM


    Day 169>>2017 Plans
    de•lu•sion -noun (American Heritage Dictionary 2009)

    1. a. The act or process of deluding.
      b. The state of being deluded.
    2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
    3. Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.

    The dictionary defines what recovery means. There are many common delusions in everyday thinking, and they are not limited to mentally ill people--unless a case could be made that since addiction is a medical disorder of the brain,anyone suffering from any addiction is at least mildly mentally ill.

    I know that for me personally, gambling was most definitely a delusion. My next addiction, emotional codependency, is proving to also be a delusion...though it is harder to let go in this one. I have always thought of myself as an older figure who had the wisdom to rescue younger people and not as one who was emotionally codependent. As my recovery process heals my brain, however...I am seeing that I was in fact delusional in that I saw myself as a rescuer rather than emotionally codependent. Recovery in this issue goes way back to my childhood where i had a Father who was emotionally codependent on me...and I always saw him as my rescuer.

    2017 should be a year of further healing, and I look forward to being a stronger mentor rather than a codependent one. The process will take time, however.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 128 by RAZD, posted 12-18-2016 3:09 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9313
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 2.3


    (1)
    Message 135 of 179 (797003)
    01-09-2017 3:45 PM


    Day 176>>Dreams,Reality,and Healing
    I am having some strange dreams about old unresoved obsessions and compulsions I used to have. It seems as though the healing process goes back in time further and further the longer i am sober. Carnes claims the entire process is 3-5 years.

    I certainly hope not, but it makes me realize even more the importance of continuing to take sobriety seriously. My work is twice as hard as it was before---the new Boss demands that we stay busy all of the time, even though after an hour or so of straight customers with 200 dollar orders, one would need a break. Again, I thank God for giving me my job back and realize that without sobriety I couldn't even handle these new challenges.

    I again see my counselor on thursday. Stay tuned....the healing is only starting.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

      
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