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Author | Topic: Calvinism and Arminianism remix | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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What alternatives can be envisioned? 1) Leave everyone alone. That's it, Phat! It's that one.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I keep coming up against this problem - the problem that every believer believes something different even within the same belief. Gosh, it's almost like we're people.
You're telling me that setting up a system where everything fights for its life at the expense of all other life such that every living organism suffers and ultimately dies - and this goes on for millions of years - is not evil? What could be worse? Without competition there is no growth. Complete stasis sounds worse to me. Edited by New Cat's Eye, : No reason given.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
NCE writes: Gosh, it's almost like we're people. Yup, people making stuff up. Yeah, that is how people come to conclusions. Often they differ. \_(ツ)_/
You're just lacking in imagination - you can only think of this model. Funny, I was going to say the same thing about you:
quote: quote: I think stasis is worse than competition.
I ask again, is this the best a god can do? I don't know. Edited by New Cat's Eye, : No reason given.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Making stuff up is not the same as forming different conclusions. Duh. But conclusions are made up.
You're all supposed to be the same religion... We're also people. People aren't droids and they have these things called opinions. They also think about stuff. Religion isn't something that is done to you, it is something that you paricipate in. It's no wonder peoples' opinions on the matter differ. Especially given we're talking about something that lacks empirical evidence.
And I think that's both a false choice and an unfounded assumption. How does a thing grow without taking from something else?
You're omnigod had only one choice? I doubt it. For what it's worth: I don't have much use for the omni-stuff.
I think you yourself could have designed as less destructive enviroment, let alone your god. But in any case, if this is the best he could do, but did it anyway, he's culpable. You are welcome to that opinion.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
1 - Create a universe where matter can be created and/or destroyed. Perhaps there is.
2 - "Taking from something else" isn't even really the issue. The issue is more "taking from something else that is intelligently alive." It is an opinion that that is an/the issue, and it presumes that it is something that should be cared about.
There are an infinite number of ways to change (that is - not be stagnant) without requiring what we call "evil." Right: what we call "evil" - is it actually evil, though? What if other people call it "not-evil", who's right? Too, on that same line, there are an infinite number of ways in which our world could be way more evil than the way it is, so there's that.
Any way you look at it... if one is all-powerful, it should be rather easy to change a few things here or there to make the universe better than it is. How much of that has already happened and how much is still to come? I don't think us humans are in a position to be judging the whole world as evil or not. Well, I mean, we can... it's just pointless.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
It's only energy that is being used. There are a myriad of ways of powering organisms that don't require them to kill and eat other organisms. But there'd still be competition... If both of us want to grow, and there are limited resources, then we have to compete - even if we're not eating other organisms. On the other hand, everything existing in perfect harmony with unlimited energy provided for free is not the gauge that we should be using to judge evil, in my opinion.
Yet your religion taught that principle for millenium - and still mostly does. Now you're allowed to form your own 'conclusions' ie, make stuff up. What do you mean now? People have always accepted or rejected religious teachings and formed their own conclusions.
But you're shying away from the negligence argument. In our ethical - and legal - code, to cause a harm by negligence - allowing something to happen that you should have or did foresee, but did allow or caused anyway - is culpable. That's cool, but "I think the world should be better than it is so therefore God is evil" is not a convincing argument.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Yes, it is an opinion. It is my opinion that having to kill nothing in order to grow is better than having to kill another-intelligent-living-creature in order to grow. And yes, I presume to care about it. Do you care about it? If not, to what ends are you participating in this discussion?If you do care about it, and you do not agree... why not? I think my reasons for why I think it's better is rather obvious... we get no difference in the decisions we make or our perception of the reality we live in other than "no intelligent organism has to die in order for another to grow."This is because I am of the opinion that intelligence has value. If you do not agree, why not?If you simply do not agree that "intelligence has value" then I bid you good day and hope I never meet you in an alleyway I care about human intelligence, but I cannot care less about fish intelligence. I'll bite a fishes head right off if I'm hungry enough. Fish intelligence has no value to me.
But self-congratulations has ever been the adversary of progress. And perfection is the enemy of good.
If such a thing were in place... then how can we say God is all-powerful? I don't think you'll find me saying that God is, actually, all-powerful. I have no use for that term. The world is getting better - "God isn't doing it fast enough for my taste, so therefore He is evil" is not a convincing argument.
But I don't have any issue in the context of a not-all-powerful God, either. As I understand that things are not "as good as they could be" simply because God can't make them that way. You assume that it is the way that things should be. Go right ahead, but don't think it's convincing.
As pointless, and powerful as it is to consider questioning an all-powerful God for any reason. So yeah: pointless.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You can't get beyond the existing model. Pssh I went above and beyond the existing model. And that's funny, I was going to say the same thing about you:
quote: quote: .
Why do we need to grow? Why are we not grown? Why do we need to comptete for limited resources? These are not givens if you're a god designing a world. I didn't say we need to. And you don't know the givens.
Why not! Because it's an irrelevant hypothetical. Why yes?
We judge evil based on harm to others. Define "others". I don't judge my evil based on the countless number of organism I inadvertantly kill as I'm walking around all day.
Your god has created the ultimate harm. Your god promises perfect harmony - but only after he's tortured us and all his creation. You don't get to tell me about my God.
Well I admire your attempt to downplay multiple, planetary-wide genocide - and worse - as 'should have been better' but really, what more does a god have to do to be called evil? That question is too loaded to answer.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Just watch me. No.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Jerk...
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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Really? You can't defend your god's behaviour? I'm pretty sure I can, but you don't get to tell me what my God does. You just can't get over seeing religion as something that is done to people rather than something that people participate in - which explains why you think you can dictate my beliefs to me. It turns out you're wrong.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I suggest you get on with it then. Thanks for the suggestion. When I see something worth defending against I'll consider it.
The point of these fori, is to question and critique beliefs held by believers. I thought it was understanding through discussion... apparently you'd rather dictate than understand.
You've said that twice now and it's puzzled me - I have never said that religion is something that is done to people and I have no idea what it even means. Well, for example, your approach is that Christianity says X so since I'm a Christian then I must believe X.
I'm afraid that's something you've just made up. Ahem:
quote: I see it the other way: Christians have come to believe X so therefore Christianity says X.
And why on earth would I think that people don't participate in religion? You act as though we are droids having beliefs dictated to us rather than being people who think about this stuff and come to conclusions. You didn't ask me what I believe about my God, you just told me that my God is all-powerful and basically a tortuous murderer - presumably because you think that's what my religion teaches.
Seems to me you have a personal problem here. Yeah, it's you being a jerk.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
This is a core problem, I'm talking about Christianity generally, you're talking about your personal god, which, I believe, is the Christian god. Right, but that is your problem not mine:
quote: It turns out that being "within a belief" doesn't mean that you are tied to specific particulars. Religious people actually come to their own conclusions and end up finding themselves within the same beliefs - they're not dictated to them.
The traditional idea of the Christian god - as it has been taught for generations - is the omni-god; all seeing, all poweful, all knowing, all present, all powerful. Yes, and I'm a Christian who is saying that they don't have any use for those terms.
But ok, your personal version of this Christian god is a lessor god; his power is bounded, his vision clouded, his options limited. See? You can't help but dictate my beliefs to me. I don't agree to any of that.
Well so be it, all my questions still stand and you're avoiding them. I'm not responding to your questions. I'm trying to help you with your problem.
I have to conclude it's because you can't answer them and all this smoke and pretend hurt is simply because of that. Well that makes you an idiot, and it's your loss not mine. So anyways, to continue to help you with your problem: since I've found God there hasn't been a place or time where I've reached out to Him and He wasn't there. In that sense, I get how other people say that he is "everywhere" and "always" - that is consistent with my experience. But the logical ramification of "omni-presence" isn't something that I find either useful or valuable - other than to spend time making frivolous arguments on the internet for fun Me identifying as a Christian doesn't mean that you're allowed to hold me to specific particulars of the group. I mean, you can... but you can fuck off too (no offense) I am willing to share my beliefs, but you won't get to dictate them to me.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
So your god isn't... You still can't help yourself.
You're not making much sense. You're the one providing all this nonsense, not me. I'm not making claims about my God, you are.
Did he or did he not create this world with all it's suffering and death? I don't know.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
If all you say is you don't know, it's hard for any of us to tell what you think of your god. I can live with that. I'm not posting in this thread to tell you what I think of my God.
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