Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,585 Year: 2,842/9,624 Month: 687/1,588 Week: 93/229 Day: 4/61 Hour: 4/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 848 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 7 of 283 (744610)
12-13-2014 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
12-12-2014 10:44 PM


Except that any role of man's will outside of God's will is exactly what is excluded by the teachings about grace alone being the basis of salvation.
This is taking the idea of grace alone too far to the point it makes God a manipulator - a puppet master. Man accepting the gift is not the same as one earning the gift or doing something which deserves God's grace. His grace is given precisely to those who do not deserve it, which is none of us. I would actually see it the opposite way ... those that are the elect are part of an exclusive group, a group that excludes - absolutely denies access to - the vast majority of people who have ever lived.
I have an analogy that I think might illustrate this.
There are 1,000 prisoners on death row awaiting execution. The governor declares that he is going to issue pardons to all prisoners on death row and set them free. However, the governor knows that many of the prisoners hate him, and in fact they actually like being in prison. Many others just would not do very well in the outside world since prison is all they have known for many years. So he fills out the pardon papers only for those who he knows will accept it, which is only about 100 individuals. He then goes around to the cells of the prisoners whom he has pardoned, opens the cell door, places the pardon in their hand and escorts them out of the prison. After releasing all 100 pardoned prisoners, he then orders that all remaining be executed immediately.
Now, imagine the same scenario, but in this case, the governor writes a pardon for every one of the 1,000 prisoners. He then takes them around to each prisoner one by one and personally offers it to them. But many of the prisoners hated him and they refused to take the pardon, some even spit on him and cursed him. The governor was saddened by this, but what could he do? He can't force anyone to take the pardon. A few did take the pardon, and they were released from the prison. The governor then allowed the executions to continue as scheduled.
So, in which case did the governor desire that all receive a pardon? In which case did any of the prisoners do something that deserved or earned a pardon?
I don't see any room for "other conditions" in which man's will could possibly act independently of God.
There is another part of this I don't think you have considered. If this is true, then all the members here at EvC who you have such disdain for and continuously chastise for their despicable ideologies are simply acting out God's will in their life. As no one could possibly act independently of God's will, they should not receive your loathing, but your approval. But the fact is, you believe that people DO act independently of God's will.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 12-12-2014 10:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 12-13-2014 12:35 PM herebedragons has replied
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 12-13-2014 2:39 PM herebedragons has replied
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 2:43 PM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 848 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 9 of 283 (744614)
12-13-2014 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
12-13-2014 12:35 PM


If you have the capacity to accept the gift, then you "have something of which to boast," something to chalk up to your own praise, something you did of your own free will apart from God's grace. It is indeed a "work" although you are trying to deny that by a semantic route.
Do you really think the prisoners in my analogy left the prison bragging about how they took the pardon from the governor's hand?
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 12-13-2014 12:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 12-13-2014 2:43 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 848 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 18 of 283 (744631)
12-13-2014 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
12-13-2014 2:39 PM


How on earth does anyone's being Elect, a sinner who is the recipient of God's free grace, exclude anyone else from anything?
I quote Wesley, from Message 283
quote:
Go now and find out how to split
the hair between thy being reprobated and not elected; how to separate
reprobation, in its most effectual sense, from unconditional election!
Acknowledge then that you hold reprobation. Avow it in the face of
the sun. To be consistent with yourself, you must openly assert, that
without reprobation this election cannot stand. You know it cannot.
You are apparently attributing the first scenario to Calvinism but that is not Calvinism, I suppose it's a figment of the Arminian imagination. The second scenario is the actual case: the offer of pardon is given to EVERYONE and some accept and some don't. It's only after we know who has accepted that we know who is elect, that's not something that can be known in advance, and even if God knows it we don't, we're told to offer the pardon to all, and we do.
You apparently don't understand limited atonement. From the OP:
quote:
Limited Atonement
Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation. (bold mine)
The pardon is NOT given to ALL, but only to the elect. True, we don't know who the elect are, but that's not the point. The point is according to limited atonement, God does know, and only extends the offer to the elect, whom he calls. Faith is only given to those whom he died for. How can you separate reprobation from limited atonement?
quote:
Go now and find out how to split
the hair between thy being reprobated and not elected; how to separate
reprobation, in its most effectual sense, from unconditional election!
Acknowledge then that you hold reprobation. Avow it in the face of
the sun. To be consistent with yourself, you must openly assert, that
without reprobation this election cannot stand. You know it cannot.
I'm not sure what the confusion is here but there is certainly some kind of major confusion going on. The governor, that is, God, according to Calvin, offers the pardon to ALL. The Bible is very clear about that and so is Calvin. The first scenario represents no Christian system I'm aware of and certainly not Calvinism.
That is the essence of the controversy. The Bible IS clear that God offers the pardon to all, but limited atonement and unconditional election work to contradict that.
If we aren't completely dependent on grace but do the work of accepting it all on our own, then we've contributed something to our salvation and "have something to boast of." It's not ALL of grace if we contribute anything from ourselves.
quote:
See, his faith was at work along with his actions. In fact, his faith was made complete by his faithful actions. So the scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and God regarded him as righteous. What is more, Abraham was called God’s friend. So you see that a person is shown to be righteous through faithful actions and not through faith alone. James 2:22-24 CEB
Abraham believed.
quote:
God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him won’t perish but will have eternal life. John 3:16 CEB
Our part: to believe
quote:
The elders in the past were approved because they showed faith. Hebrews 11:2
So God gives us faith and then approves when we have faith?
The rest of Hebrews 11 is filled with examples of people choosing to believe and then acting on faith.
quote:
See to it that you don’t resist the one who is speaking. If the people didn’t escape when they refused to listen to the one who warned them on earth, how will we escape if we reject the one who is warning from heaven? Hebrews 12:25 CEB
Again, our responsibility to listen and believe.
I'm not sure what the best way of stating it is but just as we offer the gospel to all, we expect all to be free to accept it as far as we ourselves can judge, because we have no ability to see God's will in these matters.
That is just chasing-your-tail rationalization.
That's the typical hypercalvinism you are all committing. No Calvinist thinks that way.
That's because the implications of Calvinism are intolerable.
John Wesley again:
quote:
I am verily persuaded, that, in the uprightness of your hearts, you defend
the decree of unconditional election; even in the same uprightness wherein
you reject and abhor that of unconditional reprobation. But consider, I
intreat you, whether you are consistent with yourselves; consider,
whether this election can be separate from reprobation; whether one of
them does not imply the other, so that, in holding one, you must hold
both.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 12-13-2014 2:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 12-14-2014 6:27 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 848 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 19 of 283 (744634)
12-13-2014 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
12-13-2014 2:43 PM


Re: The Governor and The Warlord
jars analogy would have the governor not only offering a pardon to every prisoner but releasing every prisoner whether they accepted the pardon or not..whereas HBD analogy says that all are offered the pardon yet only those who accept the pardon will have an opportunity to benefit from it.
I tend to think that everyone will have an opportunity to accept, perhaps even a second chance. I don't pretend this is necessarily a Biblically supported position (not that it is completely contradictory either), it just seems to fit my idea of God's justice. He truly does not wish any to perish and I believe will go to great lengths to give everyone the opportunity.
Pardoning everyone whether they want it or not seems to violate free will as well, just at the other extreme.
HBD
Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 2:43 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 4:43 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 848 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 20 of 283 (744635)
12-13-2014 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
12-13-2014 2:54 PM


Re: I Beg Your Pardon,Maam
Of course we could argue that the potter has every right to make some pots foreknowing their eventual value and sale at market whereas making other pots that he knows will never make it.
When Paul mentioned that God made some pots for noble purposes and some for common purposes, he wasn't saying that he made some that were worthless and to be destroyed. The image is of a skilled potter who makes some pots to hold water and some to hold jewelry. He was talking about gifts, not that he would make good pots and useless pots.
Critics would argue that my idea of God needs work, however.
Phat, I think we are all going to be surprised. None of us have it all figured out.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 2:54 PM Phat has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024