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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 283 (744576)
12-12-2014 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-11-2014 5:44 PM


My guess is that very few religious denominations adhere very closely to Arminianism because of issues other than the ones given here. For example Arminianism does not include Trinitarianism
I'd also note that Lutherans are Trinitarians who also reject unconditional election and Calvinistic predestination.
And despite what any one side would have you believe, there is Biblical support for each of those positions.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 12-11-2014 5:44 PM Phat has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 283 (755499)
04-08-2015 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
04-08-2015 6:25 PM


Re: the difference betwee making shit up and supporting a position
Does not what we think and say itself have as much scholarly thought as anything written down?
Some of what some people say is scholarly. Surely that is self evident.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 04-08-2015 6:25 PM Phat has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 283 (760629)
06-24-2015 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
06-24-2015 12:59 AM


Re: Lost In Space
What alternatives can be envisioned?
Dogone it. Didn't Lennon and Ono cover this topic pretty well already? "Imagine".

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 06-24-2015 12:59 AM Phat has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 70 of 283 (815835)
07-25-2017 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
07-23-2017 3:54 PM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
nd getting back to Calvinism. Tell me again why the doctrine is so evil
According to Calvinists, there are people foreordained to the worst torment available for an eternity, and there is nothing they, you or anybody else can do about it. A lifetime spent seeking to avoid such punishment is doomed to failure?
Given that the Bible itself teaches no such thing, with Calvinism being imposed on the Bible absent any clear Biblical support because folks have a fatalistic philosophy seems like pure evil to me.
Yes, free will is a difficult thing to resolve in the face of omniscience. But why would a Christian choose to resolve the problem in the most hideous way possible?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 07-23-2017 3:54 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 283 (816376)
08-03-2017 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Tangle
08-03-2017 3:06 AM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
Competition is cruel, period. It's hard to imagine a less cruel way of setting up a system of life.
I think you reverse the sense of one of your adverbs...
Even the existence of carnivorousness is evil - life having to hunt and kill other life to to be alive themselves is fantastically cruel.
I disagree. Particularly when the alternative is a population of sickly, weak, and unevolved animals. In my opinion, the circle of life imposed over a circumstance of competition, survival, and evolution works extremely well and produces a superb outcome. I doubt that humans could evolve in the "good" system you envision.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Tangle, posted 08-03-2017 3:06 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 08-03-2017 2:39 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 283 (816453)
08-04-2017 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Tangle
08-03-2017 2:39 PM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
Firstly, why is the alternative to carnivorism sickly, weak and unevolved? Herbivores are as evolved as any other critter.
Good question. I left some things that I supposed to be obvious unsaid.
Herbivores have evolved, in part, to escape carnivores. Carnivores have evolved to escape men and to more readily catch herbivores.
Part of man's evolution has involved the need to escape carnivores and to prey on other animals.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 08-03-2017 2:39 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2017 5:37 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 79 of 283 (816457)
08-04-2017 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Tangle
08-04-2017 5:37 PM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
It's a viscous and evil thing to do
That's your opinion.
My opinion is that there is no other way to create a self-sustaining, evolving ecology. In that system, herbivores, carnivores, scavengers, and death all have a role to play. We know that the current system works well, and is capable of generating living, sentient beings with enormous potential. I am not aware of any other way to do that.
Your line of argument is one I would totally expect from a creationist who imagines life on earth was created in a gestalt with every creature specially created. I could not fault a creationist for thinking that way. I really cannot understand why anyone else would think that way. Death is not evil. It is a fact of life.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2017 5:37 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2017 1:24 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 283 (816476)
08-05-2017 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Tangle
08-05-2017 1:24 AM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
You're looking at the world we have now and saying that given what we've got there's no other way of acheiving it
If I am doing that, then I am looking at the evidence instead of indulging in fantasy. In contrast, you are indulging in a fantasy where the laws of science are malleable and will yield to some amount of energy and willpower. There is zero evidence that such a thing is so. Biology simply does not work the way creationists work, and the way is necessary for your belief that the current world is unnecessarily evil. What you do here is assume that the creationists might well be correct and critique the existing world on that basis.
It makes no difference whether life on earth is an accident or whether some sentient force started life on this planet the fantastic result we have is still the same. It is only if you imagine a cosmic micro-manager that had other choices to make but did not that you can conclude that God is evil.
Death and suffering are only facts of life because there was no designer to do it in a way a loving designer would.
Assuming that the designer had a choice to make the world work that way given some set of constraints that you are speculating do not exist. In rejecting those constraints as a possibility, you are the one with a lack of imagination. I have at least come up with one possibility that would not make God a psychopath. I am sure there are others.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2017 1:24 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2017 9:19 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 283 (816530)
08-05-2017 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Tangle
08-05-2017 9:19 AM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
And I'm looking at the evidence of psycopathy and also indulging in fantasy. Or thought experiment if you prefer.
Yes, it is a thought experiment. But it is one in which you construct a straw god to subject to criticism. All that's need as a rebuttal is to point that out.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2017 9:19 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2017 4:20 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 283 (816592)
08-07-2017 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Tangle
08-05-2017 4:20 PM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
Aren't all gods straw gods?
That is certainly what the position I would expect you to take. It is not a point that I am attempting to debate with you.
In this particular discussion, your position is that if God is real, He is evil. In so doing, you have elected to build up a straw god to pin guilt on.
From memory your straw god is also rather puny, incapable of doing anything better than what he's done? I doubt many recognise that model.
Or perhaps God does not have the cartoony powers that you are trying to attribute to Him.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2017 4:20 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2017 2:18 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 91 of 283 (816600)
08-07-2017 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Tangle
08-07-2017 2:18 PM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
Objectively, I say that is an evil experiment. And if a god built it that way, then he is guilty.
Again, assuming there is another way to build a universe and that God is responsible for micromanaging things to a degree only a Creationist would accept. That is your premise. That God should have done things the way Tangle would have done it, regardless of whether such things are even scientifically possible.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2017 2:18 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2017 5:31 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 283 (816714)
08-09-2017 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Tangle
08-07-2017 5:31 PM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
hy wouldn't there be? But if there isn't, and he did it anyway, then he's culpable.
In my opinion, your resolution makes no sense, but perhaps your statement above is as close as we are going to get to a view from each other's perspective.
In my opinion, the universe we have is infinitely more beneficial that one with no life, no free will, no human level intelligence, etc. even if our sun only lasts a few billion years, and cheetahs cannot be convinced not to eat gazelles. What we have is also better than no universe at all. At least the current universe allows Tangle to ask the questions he asks.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2017 5:31 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 08-10-2017 3:56 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
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