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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5153
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 196 of 283 (817456)
08-17-2017 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by GDR
08-17-2017 2:12 PM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:

I agree with you when you say that "chemical processes are not random, evolution is not random, planetary orbits are not random". There is a coherence to them. My point is whether or not the natural chemical processes, the evolutionary forces and planetary orbits are the result of intelligence or not. If not than again it boils down to intelligence or random chance.

I know what your point is, I'm trying to get across the science that tells us it's not random. Just saying that it's all random chance, doesn't make it so. Especially when ALL of the evidence points to natural causes and NONE points to the supernatural.

You have a belief, don't try to make it a science.

So Hawking believes that self generation was inevitable. I like you don't understand that either, but assuming he is right then the question remains; was the inevitability there due to chance or intelligence?

I'll never understand the physics that leads to that conclusion - or even the lay man's explanations - but I trust the process that derives it. I trust it because of its track history of providing correct answers. And of it's track record of correcting its errors. Hawking's ideas are too early in the day to say that they're correct, but it IS the working hypothesis. If it wasn't, and the hypothesis was goddidit, we're wasting an awful lot of time, money and human effort trying to solve these problems.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by GDR, posted 08-17-2017 2:12 PM GDR has not yet responded

New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11812
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 197 of 283 (817467)
08-17-2017 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Tangle
08-17-2017 1:22 PM


Re: Why do you care?
I suggest you get on with it then.

Thanks for the suggestion.

When I see something worth defending against I'll consider it.

The point of these fori, is to question and critique beliefs held by believers.

I thought it was understanding through discussion... apparently you'd rather dictate than understand.

You've said that twice now and it's puzzled me - I have never said that religion is something that is done to people and I have no idea what it even means.

Well, for example, your approach is that Christianity says X so since I'm a Christian then I must believe X.

I'm afraid that's something you've just made up.

Ahem:

quote:
You're omnigod...

Yet your religion taught that principle for millenium - and still mostly does. Now you're allowed to form your own 'conclusions' ie, make stuff up.

Your god has created the ultimate harm. Your god promises perfect harmony - but only after he's tortured us and all his creation.

Cobblers, people have always been told what to believe on pain of death or worse. We live in liberal times in a liberal part of the world - we forget.

Well I admire your attempt to downplay multiple, planetary-wide genocide - and worse - as 'should have been better' but really, what more does a god have to do to be called evil?

What's inadvertant about deliberately killing every animal and plant on a planet? Including people.


I see it the other way: Christians have come to believe X so therefore Christianity says X.

And why on earth would I think that people don't participate in religion?

You act as though we are droids having beliefs dictated to us rather than being people who think about this stuff and come to conclusions.

You didn't ask me what I believe about my God, you just told me that my God is all-powerful and basically a tortuous murderer - presumably because you think that's what my religion teaches.

Seems to me you have a personal problem here.

Yeah, it's you being a jerk.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 1:22 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 5:15 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 5153
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 198 of 283 (817469)
08-17-2017 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2017 4:56 PM


Re: Why do you care?
NCE writes:

You didn't ask me what I believe about my God, you just told me that my God is all-powerful and basically a tortuous murderer - presumably because you think that's what my religion teaches.

This is a core problem, I'm talking about Christianity generally, you're talking about your personal god, which, I believe, is the Christian god.

The traditional idea of the Christian god - as it has been taught for generations - is the omni-god; all seeing, all poweful, all knowing, all present, all powerful.

But ok, your personal version of this Christian god is a lessor god; his power is bounded, his vision clouded, his options limited.

Well so be it, all my questions still stand and you're avoiding them. I have to conclude it's because you can't answer them and all this smoke and pretend hurt is simply because of that.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 4:56 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 08-17-2017 5:56 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 209 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 11:15 PM Tangle has responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 10039
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 199 of 283 (817486)
08-17-2017 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Tangle
08-17-2017 5:15 PM


The Problem Of Evil
Tangle, replying to NCE writes:

The traditional idea of the Christian god - as it has been taught for generations - is the omni-god; all seeing, all powerful, all knowing, all present, all powerful.

But ok, your personal version of this Christian god is a lesser god; his power is bounded, his vision clouded, his options limited.

Well so be it, all my questions still stand and you're avoiding them. I have to conclude it's because you can't answer them and all this smoke and pretend hurt is simply because of that.

I will admit that the Problem Of Evil is the number one argument brought up by inquiring minds. Peter Kreeft explains his philosophy quite well at my link, by the way.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 5:15 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 6:21 PM Phat has responded
 Message 201 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 6:22 PM Phat has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 26592
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 200 of 283 (817494)
08-17-2017 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Phat
08-17-2017 5:56 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Why isn't the Fall sufficient explanation?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 08-17-2017 5:56 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Phat, posted 08-17-2017 9:22 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5153
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 201 of 283 (817495)
08-17-2017 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Phat
08-17-2017 5:56 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Phat writes:

I will admit that the Problem Of Evil is the number one argument brought up by inquiring minds.

And it can't be answered so it's rationalised and/or ignored.

But I'm asking a little bit more than the suffering thing which pre-dates science, I'm asking why make life competitive? Why make it billions of years of death and destruction yet make life short and vicious? Is this the very best this loving god could do?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 08-17-2017 5:56 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 6:24 PM Tangle has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 26592
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 202 of 283 (817496)
08-17-2017 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Tangle
08-17-2017 6:22 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
God didn't do any of that; that's all the consequences of the Fall.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 6:22 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 6:29 PM Faith has responded
 Message 225 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 12:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5153
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 203 of 283 (817497)
08-17-2017 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Faith
08-17-2017 6:24 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Faith writes:

God didn't do any of that; that's all the consequences of the Fall.

Oh Faith.....that's just fairy story stuff.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 6:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 6:36 PM Tangle has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 26592
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 204 of 283 (817498)
08-17-2017 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Tangle
08-17-2017 6:29 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
It's the orthodox view of Christianity based on the Bible. How do you justify preferring your own wrongheaded idea of what Christianity teaches to what mainstream Christianity says it teaches? We don't teach the God you describe, that's your own invention; we teach that the Fall is responsible for the circumstances you impute to God based on nothing but your own imagination.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 6:29 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 6:54 PM Faith has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5153
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 205 of 283 (817499)
08-17-2017 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Faith
08-17-2017 6:36 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Faith writes:

It's the orthodox view of Christianity based on the Bible.

Yes I know, and it's a view that other modern Christians deny. I'm just a simple atheist who looks at the lot of you - you believe in the same god and the same bible but have these preposterous disagreements, and I'm just baffled by the absurdity of it. (And this is just one religion....)

How do you justify preferring your own wrongheaded idea of what Christianity teaches to what mainstream Christianity says it teaches?

My own idea? I'm just playing back what I was taught and what others here say.

We don't teach the God you describe, that's your own invention; we teach that the Fall is responsible for the circumstances you impute to God based on nothing but your own imagination.

When you say 'We', you mean your sect. Other 'Wes' teach something different. GDR's god is not the same as your god - yet you both say they are the god of this Jesus guy.

Still others have their own personal gods - like NCE and NoNukes - that are apparently still Christian gods but are the lessor versions with more human scale powers.

Its a puzzle isn't it? Who am I to believe represents the 'real' one?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 6:36 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 6:57 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 207 by GDR, posted 08-17-2017 9:09 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 26592
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 206 of 283 (817500)
08-17-2017 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Tangle
08-17-2017 6:54 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Christians have disagreements but I don't know any who believe in the God you keep describing.

My "we" refers to Bible believers. GDR denies parts of the Bible, so he's not part of my "we." He doesn't believe in the God you are describing either; he wrongly thinks that describes the God of the Bible so he refuses to believe that part of the Bible. "We" don't believe the God of the Bible is the God you are describing, or the "God" GDR refuses to accept.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 6:54 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2017 3:39 AM Faith has responded
 Message 226 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 12:05 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4348
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 207 of 283 (817506)
08-17-2017 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Tangle
08-17-2017 6:54 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Tangle writes:

When you say 'We', you mean your sect. Other 'Wes' teach something different. GDR's god is not the same as your god - yet you both say they are the god of this Jesus guy.

Still others have their own personal gods - like NCE and NoNukes - that are apparently still Christian gods but are the lessor versions with more human scale powers.

Its a puzzle isn't it? Who am I to believe represents the 'real' one?

Obviously you should pick me.

The thing is Tangle, mankind has long struggled with trying to determine the nature of their god or gods and how that should impact their lives. In most cases it has been about how to get their god/gods to do what they want them to do.

My problem with much of Christianity is that in recent years it has been about how to get God to put them in a good spot after they die. Actually when you read the Gospel accounts of Jesus life it is primarily about being a kingdom people and serving God's creation, which includes not only other humans but all of creation.

Faith believes in an inerrant Bible which paints a very confused picture of God when which has Him commanding genocide on one hand and telling us to love our enemy on the other. Faith somehow manages to accept both positions.

My view is that we understand all of scripture through the lens of what we have about Jesus, based on the faith that Jesus perfectly embodies the nature of God. Theology is not like science. Theologians cannot work out mathematical formulas or conduct experiments to prove their views. We simply live our lives imperfectly based on what we believe about the nature of God and what that should mean to our lives.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 6:54 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 12:17 AM GDR has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10039
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 208 of 283 (817509)
08-17-2017 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Faith
08-17-2017 6:21 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Faith writes:

Why isn't the Fall sufficient explanation?

Because the audience here at EvC thinks that the Fall is a fairy tale. You won't convince them...even with CAPITAL LETTERS.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 6:21 PM Faith has not yet responded

New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11812
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 209 of 283 (817515)
08-17-2017 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Tangle
08-17-2017 5:15 PM


Re: Why do you care?
This is a core problem, I'm talking about Christianity generally, you're talking about your personal god, which, I believe, is the Christian god.

Right, but that is your problem not mine:

quote:
I keep coming up against this problem - the problem that every believer believes something different even within the same belief.

It turns out that being "within a belief" doesn't mean that you are tied to specific particulars. Religious people actually come to their own conclusions and end up finding themselves within the same beliefs - they're not dictated to them.

The traditional idea of the Christian god - as it has been taught for generations - is the omni-god; all seeing, all poweful, all knowing, all present, all powerful.

Yes, and I'm a Christian who is saying that they don't have any use for those terms.

But ok, your personal version of this Christian god is a lessor god; his power is bounded, his vision clouded, his options limited.

See? You can't help but dictate my beliefs to me. I don't agree to any of that.

Well so be it, all my questions still stand and you're avoiding them.

I'm not responding to your questions. I'm trying to help you with your problem.

I have to conclude it's because you can't answer them and all this smoke and pretend hurt is simply because of that.

Well that makes you an idiot, and it's your loss not mine.

So anyways, to continue to help you with your problem: since I've found God there hasn't been a place or time where I've reached out to Him and He wasn't there. In that sense, I get how other people say that he is "everywhere" and "always" - that is consistent with my experience.

But the logical ramification of "omni-presence" isn't something that I find either useful or valuable - other than to spend time making frivolous arguments on the internet for fun

Me identifying as a Christian doesn't mean that you're allowed to hold me to specific particulars of the group. I mean, you can... but you can fuck off too (no offense)

I am willing to share my beliefs, but you won't get to dictate them to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2017 5:15 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2017 3:55 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 26592
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 210 of 283 (817523)
08-18-2017 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by GDR
08-17-2017 9:09 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Faith believes in an inerrant Bible which paints a very confused picture of God when which has Him commanding genocide on one hand and telling us to love our enemy on the other. Faith somehow manages to accept both positions.

Genocide is murder. So many people these days don't know the difference between justice and criminality, so they go out and protest the death penalty though it is justice against murder. What God commanded is justice -- earned judgment. That's why I have no problem reconciling two supposed pictures of God -- God is severely just and He's merciful and loving.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by GDR, posted 08-17-2017 9:09 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by GDR, posted 08-18-2017 12:31 AM Faith has responded

  
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