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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
GDR
Member
Posts: 4349
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 211 of 283 (817526)
08-18-2017 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
08-18-2017 12:17 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Faith writes:

Genocide is murder. So many people these days don't know the difference between justice and criminality, so they go out and protest the death penalty though it is justice against murder. What God commanded is justice -- earned judgment. That's why I have no problem reconciling two supposed pictures of God -- God is severely just and He's merciful and loving.

OK Faith. I completely reject that for reasons that I have already stated, but let's just say that is correct.

In the OT we see Yahweh acting personally to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for essentially the same reason. God didn't need the Israelites to slaughter innocent infants. You however believe that Yahweh ordered them to do just that.

Why would He subject the chosen people that He loves to slaughter men, women children and beasts knowing the physiological damage, (have you heard about PTSD?), that it would do to the Israelites. These are the people whom He called to spread His love to the world.

If Yahweh wanted the Canaanites dead why didn't He just do it Himself.

Also, it is the same situation with stoning to death your neighbour because he was picking up firewood on the Sabbath. That obviously is totally against what Jesus taught and again what does it do to the community that He loves to be stoning their friend and neighbour to death? And, if you still think that it was necessary then you have a very different understanding of the nature of God than Jesus did. For that matter, once again why didn't He just do it Himself if it was actually necessary?

Once again remember it is CHRISTianity not BIBLEianity.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 12:17 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 1:06 AM GDR has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26605
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 212 of 283 (817529)
08-18-2017 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by GDR
08-18-2017 12:31 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
You cannot know anything about God without the Bible. You certainly cannot know anything about God if you pick the Bible apart.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by GDR, posted 08-18-2017 12:31 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by GDR, posted 08-18-2017 2:07 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 08-18-2017 9:48 AM Faith has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4349
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


(2)
Message 213 of 283 (817532)
08-18-2017 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Faith
08-18-2017 1:06 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Faith writes:

You cannot know anything about God without the Bible. You certainly cannot know anything about God if you pick the Bible apart.

That hardly answers any of the severe problems there are with your way of understanding the scriptures. You couldn't even attempt an answer.

Yes i believe that God reaches out to us through the scriptures, although not just the scriptures.

I suggest that with your way of understanding them you completely distorts what God has to say. It isn't that difficult really if you start with a resurrected Jesus and recognize Him as the embodied word/wisdom of God. Then you can understand the Bible through that lens. Also to understand much of what Jesus is saying you need the OT as Jesus is constantly referencing it in the Gospels.

That is hardly picking the Bible apart.

Edited by GDR, : typo.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 1:06 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5157
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 214 of 283 (817534)
08-18-2017 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Faith
08-17-2017 6:57 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Faith writes:

Christians have disagreements but I don't know any who believe in the God you keep describing.

I'm describing the world that your god has created, it's not a matter of belief it's a simple fact. If a person had created this experiment, you too would call him evil.

My "we" refers to Bible believers. GDR denies parts of the Bible, so he's not part of my "we."

Yes, I know. Billions of other Christians aren't 'true' Christians like you either.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 6:57 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 10:03 AM Tangle has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 5157
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 215 of 283 (817535)
08-18-2017 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2017 11:15 PM


Re: Why do you care?
NCE writes:

Yes, and I'm a Christian who is saying that they don't have any use for those terms [omni-X]

[But ok, your personal version of this Christian god is a lessor god; his power is bounded, his vision clouded, his options limited.]
See? You can't help but dictate my beliefs to me. I don't agree to any of that.

So your god isn't omni anything but not limited either. You're not making much sense.

But whatever, you're still evading the point. Did he or did he not create this world with all it's suffering and death? And why is that not a problem for us to believe him being loving and even godly? He's apparently fully capable of creating ultimate paradise and ultimate hell, why inflict this temporal purgatory on us?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 11:15 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 08-18-2017 9:44 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 218 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-18-2017 9:58 AM Tangle has responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 10053
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 216 of 283 (817556)
08-18-2017 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Tangle
08-18-2017 3:55 AM


Why Life Seems Evil and Unfair
tangle writes:

Did he or did he not create this world with all it's suffering and death? And why is that not a problem for us to believe him being loving and even godly? He's apparently fully capable of creating ultimate paradise and ultimate hell, why inflict this temporal purgatory on us?

The answer which I usually give will prove your point that many of us do not tow the party line regarding beliefs.

In short, I believe that God created the possibility of evil yet never directly created an evil Being. The only reason that God created the possibility of evil was that it was only in this way that true choice could be offered to anyone or any created thing. Were it not this way, Lucifer would not have even been given the power to rebel.

So yes, I accept some of the dogma.

I also listen to alternate views.

Lets take your view, Tangle. There is no God, no heaven, and no devil or any other angels...both fallen and goodly. The world is brutal and seemingly unfair and callous because...well...because cosmological and biological evolution works that way. We are survivors for now, but there are no guarantees that humanity is favored in any way, shape, or form. Is that close to your view?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2017 3:55 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2017 10:32 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Phat
Member
Posts: 10053
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 217 of 283 (817557)
08-18-2017 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Faith
08-18-2017 1:06 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Faith writes:

You cannot know anything about God without the Bible.

Does that mean that nobody in the OT knew anything about God?

Or do you count the Jewish scriptures as an early version of the bible?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 1:06 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 10:08 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 218 of 283 (817558)
08-18-2017 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Tangle
08-18-2017 3:55 AM


Re: Why do you care?
So your god isn't...

You still can't help yourself.

You're not making much sense.

You're the one providing all this nonsense, not me. I'm not making claims about my God, you are.

Did he or did he not create this world with all it's suffering and death?

I don't know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2017 3:55 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2017 10:34 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 227 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 12:10 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 26605
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 219 of 283 (817560)
08-18-2017 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Tangle
08-18-2017 3:39 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
I'm describing the world that your god has created, it's not a matter of belief it's a simple fact. If a person had created this experiment, you too would call him evil.

Since it isn't the God Christians believe in you are not describing the world God created. The historical mainstream church attributes all the suffering and evil to the Fall; GDR solves the problem by simply refusing to believe in the parts of the Bible that seem to him to call God evil, and I'm sure there are other views, but there are certainly not "billions" who disagree with me on this point, in fact there may be absolutely none, no matter what else we may disagree about.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2017 3:39 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2017 10:38 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26605
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 220 of 283 (817561)
08-18-2017 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
08-18-2017 9:48 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Faith writes:

You cannot know anything about God without the Bible.

Does that mean that nobody in the OT knew anything about God?
Or do you count the Jewish scriptures as an early version of the bible?

I count the Hebrew scriptures as just as much THE Bible as the New Testament, I find it astonishing anyone would think they were either not the Bible or some "early version" of the Bible. They are to be read through the interpretive system of the New Testament because they are fulfilled in Christ, which is even apparent in the OT itself, but they are just as authoritative as the New Testament rightly understood, and they teach us about God's doings in history and His character, which we are to use to guide our understanding of our lives and today's world as much as the ancient Israelites were supposed to.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 08-18-2017 9:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5157
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 221 of 283 (817568)
08-18-2017 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Phat
08-18-2017 9:44 AM


Re: Why Life Seems Evil and Unfair
Phat writes:

Lets take your view, Tangle. There is no God, no heaven, and no devil or any other angels...both fallen and goodly. The world is brutal and seemingly unfair and callous because...well...because cosmological and biological evolution works that way. We are survivors for now, but there are no guarantees that humanity is favored in any way, shape, or form. Is that close to your view?

That's correct, this isn't about what I believe, it's about why - in your words - "The world is brutal and seemingly unfair and callous" if the god made it is supposed to be loving and care about us. Is this really the best your forlorn little god could do?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 08-18-2017 9:44 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Tangle
Member
Posts: 5157
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 222 of 283 (817569)
08-18-2017 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by New Cat's Eye
08-18-2017 9:58 AM


Re: Why do you care?
NCE writes:

I don't know.

I give up. But the next time you see him, why not ask.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-18-2017 9:58 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 5157
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 223 of 283 (817570)
08-18-2017 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Faith
08-18-2017 10:03 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GDR writes:

Since it isn't the God Christians believe in you are not describing the world God created

If god didn't create the things I see when I look out of my window, then who or what did?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 10:03 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by GDR, posted 08-18-2017 4:53 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 5:22 PM Tangle has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 13874
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 224 of 283 (817580)
08-18-2017 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by GDR
08-17-2017 1:45 PM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:

How do you know that. You just observe what happened but you haven't established whether or not it is by design.


That's exactly the problem with your argument: We don't know. Speculating about something we don't know is adding a superfluous proposition, which is directly opposite to Occam.

GDR writes:

You are saying that the natural processes that have resulted in the world as we know it are simply driven by a virtually an infinite number of cases of random chance, and that constitutes the cause of it all.


No. I'm arguing that we don't know whether or not there is an "ultimate cause of it all". We do know that hydrogen and oxygen seem to have some kind of affinity for each other but speculating about whether it's leprechauns or space aliens pushing them together doesn't simplify anything. The imaginary pushers are what Occam was against.

GDR writes:

I am arguing for the much simpler explanation that instead of the all the cases where random chance played a part in our existence there is simply one cause; a creation by intelligence.


So a house that's held together by nails is a more complex explanation than a house that's held together by magic? Because there are hundreds of nails and only one magician? Come on. Surely you can see how stupid that argument is.

The complexity is the magician.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by GDR, posted 08-17-2017 1:45 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by GDR, posted 08-18-2017 4:50 PM ringo has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 13874
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 225 of 283 (817582)
08-18-2017 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Faith
08-17-2017 6:24 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Faith writes:

God didn't do any of that; that's all the consequences of the Fall.


Poor helpless god.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 6:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by kbertsche, posted 08-18-2017 3:07 PM ringo has responded

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