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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 226 of 283 (817583)
08-18-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Faith
08-17-2017 6:57 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Faith writes:

Christians have disagreements but I don't know any who believe in the God you keep describing.
My "we" refers to Bible believers.


So all Christians agree with you and a Christian is defined as somebody who agrees with you. Perfectly circular.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 6:57 PM Faith has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 227 of 283 (817585)
08-18-2017 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by New Cat's Eye
08-18-2017 9:58 AM


Re: Why do you care?
New Cat's Eye writes:

You're the one providing all this nonsense, not me. I'm not making claims about my God, you are.

New Cat's Eye writes:

I don't know.


If all you say is you don't know, it's hard for any of us to tell what you think of your god.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-18-2017 9:58 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-18-2017 2:55 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 228 of 283 (817606)
08-18-2017 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by ringo
08-18-2017 12:10 PM


Re: Why do you care?
If all you say is you don't know, it's hard for any of us to tell what you think of your god.

I can live with that.

I'm not posting in this thread to tell you what I think of my God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 12:10 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1375
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 229 of 283 (817607)
08-18-2017 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by ringo
08-18-2017 12:01 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
ringo writes:

Poor helpless god.


There seems to be an implicit, unstated assumption behind this (and most) discussions of "the problem of evil": that God's highest priority is to reduce our human suffering. Thus if God does NOT reduce human suffering, He is either evil or impotent.

But what if God's highest priority is something else? Something on a longer and grander scale, like vanquishing ALL evil at the end of time? What if His priority for us, now, is not to reduce suffering, but to effect personal growth? Perhaps suffering is needed for our personal growth, just as we know that physical pain is a helpful warning to protect us from physical harm?


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 12:01 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2017 3:20 PM kbertsche has responded
 Message 247 by ringo, posted 08-19-2017 12:04 PM kbertsche has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5062
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 230 of 283 (817608)
08-18-2017 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by kbertsche
08-18-2017 3:07 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Kbert.. writes:


There seems to be an implicit, unstated assumption behind this (and most) discussions of "the problem of evil": that God's highest priority is to reduce our human suffering. Thus if God does NOT reduce human suffering, He is either evil or impotent.

Yeh, by and large, I'd reckon that a god that cares for me, shouldn't torture and kill me for some unstated long term goal.

But what if God's highest priority is something else? Something on a longer and grander scale, like vanquishing ALL evil at the end of time?

What if he likes beer and mussels? He's still toturing and killing his creation. This is not the god that cares for us. It's not the god of Jesus. Inventing excuses for his psychopathy doesn't get you away from the suffering today and the conflict with the biblical message.

What if His priority for us, now, is not to reduce suffering, but to effect personal growth? Perhaps suffering is needed for our personal growth, just as we know that physical pain is a helpful warning to protect us from physical harm?

What if, being god and all, he just stopped suffering right now?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by kbertsche, posted 08-18-2017 3:07 PM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Phat, posted 08-18-2017 4:15 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 236 by kbertsche, posted 08-18-2017 8:15 PM Tangle has responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 9756
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 231 of 283 (817615)
08-18-2017 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Tangle
08-18-2017 3:20 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
What if, being god and all, he just stopped suffering right now?

Perhaps He foreknows that we all would become lazy and less driven.

Health and day-to-day wellness of mind, body and spirit are like water in America; everyone expects it to always be available, like an unlimited well.

A muscle never becomes stronger unless it breaks down first. Perhaps neither does a culture.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2017 3:20 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2017 4:28 PM Phat has not yet responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 5062
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 232 of 283 (817619)
08-18-2017 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Phat
08-18-2017 4:15 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Phat writes:

Perhaps He foreknows that we all would become lazy and less driven.

Then perhaps he's a bit dumb? He designs something that doesn't work. He sells it anyway and wonders why he gets complaints about it being broken.

Health and day-to-day wellness of mind, body and spirit are like water in America; everyone expects it to always be available, like an unlimited well.

Yeh, but this is god we're talking about, he's supposed to be better than us.

Look your consistently missing the point - why isn't your god better?

IS THIS THE BEST HE COULD DO? [Off emphasis]


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Phat, posted 08-18-2017 4:15 PM Phat has not yet responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 233 of 283 (817622)
08-18-2017 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by ringo
08-18-2017 11:57 AM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:

How do you know that. You just observe what happened but you haven't established whether or not it is by design.

ringo writes:


That's exactly the problem with your argument: We don't know. Speculating about something we don't know is adding a superfluous proposition, which is directly opposite to Occam.

The point is that something has to be added. Either the processes are mindless or the result of intelligence. If it is intelligence then only one addition is required. If the cause for the existence of the processes is mindless then you need the addition of a vast number of causes for the transition even between basic particles and the first atom, let alone sentient moral life.

ringo writes:

No. I'm arguing that we don't know whether or not there is an "ultimate cause of it all".

Of course there is. The cause may be mindless blind chance but that is still a cause.

ringo writes:

So a house that's held together by nails is a more complex explanation than a house that's held together by magic? Because there are hundreds of nails and only one magician? Come on. Surely you can see how stupid that argument is.
The complexity is the magician.


That is hardly the point. By the way if you really want magic then just look at quantum mechanics.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 11:57 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by ringo, posted 08-19-2017 12:11 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 234 of 283 (817623)
08-18-2017 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Tangle
08-18-2017 10:38 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Tangle writes:

If god didn't create the things I see when I look out of my window, then who or what did?

You were replying to Faith with this post but you showed it as quoting me.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2017 10:38 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 235 of 283 (817624)
08-18-2017 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Tangle
08-18-2017 10:38 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Faith writes:

Since it isn't the God Christians believe in you are not describing the world God created

If god didn't create the things I see when I look out of my window, then who or what did?

You are quoting me but attributed it to GDR, as he has pointed out in the post immediately above.

Remember that the topic is suffering, and I was responding to your accusation of God for creating all the suffering in the world.

Of course God created the physical world, but not in its current deteriorated condition. We're used to the physical world and find much beauty in it but considering what the Fall did to it, followed by the destructive effect of the Flood, I for one have to suppose that its original beauty and order far surpassed even the best in this world. And suffering was not a part of the original Creation.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2017 10:38 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2017 2:39 AM Faith has responded

  
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1375
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 236 of 283 (817642)
08-18-2017 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Tangle
08-18-2017 3:20 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Tangle writes:


What if, being god and all, he just stopped suffering right now?


You seem to view God as a personal genii who exists only to serve you. Fortunately, that's not what the true God is like!

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2017 3:20 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2017 2:48 AM kbertsche has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5062
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 237 of 283 (817649)
08-19-2017 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Faith
08-18-2017 5:22 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Faith writes:

Of course God created the physical world, but not in its current deteriorated condition. We're used to the physical world and find much beauty in it but considering what the Fall did to it, followed by the destructive effect of the Flood, I for one have to suppose that its original beauty and order far surpassed even the best in this world. And suffering was not a part of the original Creation.

How could two hippies bring an end to a god's creation? It must have been a really awful piece of work to get broken so quickly and easily and continue to be broken ever after. And how come your god didn't forsee this and either not do it or do it in a different way?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 5:22 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 08-19-2017 2:42 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 242 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 7:26 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 250 by ringo, posted 08-19-2017 12:14 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 9756
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 238 of 283 (817650)
08-19-2017 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by Tangle
08-19-2017 2:39 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
And how come your god didn't foresee this and either not do it or do it in a different way?
He did. Jesus was in the beginning. Jesus was literally plan A, even before Lucifer fell from heaven and became a talking snake. God had a plan for redemption even before redemption was necessary.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2017 2:39 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2017 2:55 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 241 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2017 2:56 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 08-19-2017 12:16 PM Phat has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 5062
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 239 of 283 (817651)
08-19-2017 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by kbertsche
08-18-2017 8:15 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
kbe... writes:

You seem to view God as a personal genii who exists only to serve you. Fortunately, that's not what the true God is like!

As an atheist I know that the genie doesn't exist, I'm merely playing back what Christians say about him. I'm fully aware of what the god who created this nasty little experiment would be like - that's the point of the discussion - he'd be a psychopath.

The only way he can be excused of this evil is apparently if there's a greater plan than we are currently aware of. Well that doesn't generally work for those that attempt it here on earth, we tend to prosecute them for genocide.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by kbertsche, posted 08-18-2017 8:15 PM kbertsche has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by GDR, posted 08-19-2017 11:52 AM Tangle has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 5062
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 240 of 283 (817652)
08-19-2017 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Phat
08-19-2017 2:42 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Double post

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 08-19-2017 2:42 AM Phat has not yet responded

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