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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 241 of 283 (817653)
08-19-2017 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Phat
08-19-2017 2:42 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Phat writes:

He did. Jesus was in the beginning. Jesus was literally plan A, even before Lucifer fell from heaven and became a talking snake. God had a plan for redemption even before redemption was necessary.

I can't believe a grown-up could write that and keep a straight face. Read it out loud - does it still seem reasonable? To me it sound like a bad children's bedtime story. Which I suppose it is.

But fantasy aside, you're telling me that god foresaw the pain, suffering and death that he would inflict on the world, but did it anyway? Millions of years of death and destruction, trillions of lives but did it anyway? Then he's evil.

And this is the best he could do?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 08-19-2017 2:42 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26703
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 242 of 283 (817655)
08-19-2017 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by Tangle
08-19-2017 2:39 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
How could two hippies bring an end to a god's creation? It must have been a really awful piece of work to get broken so quickly and easily and continue to be broken ever after. And how come your god didn't forsee this and either not do it or do it in a different way?

Goes something like this: It demonstrates the extreme seriousness of sin or disobedience to God. Human beings are made in His image, originally spiritual like Him, ruled by His Moral Law. It's His universe, governed by a spiritual law, the Moral Law. If that is broken the physical universe is broken. Living things become subject to disease and death. After accumulating sin to a great degree the world had to be completely destroyed by the Flood.

He knew it would happen, it had to happen if He made a creature in His own image that could rebel against Him. The idea of why He let it happen that I'm aware of is that His ultimate plan will be much better as a result of our going through all this. I think something like this is what kbertsche was saying: the suffering is nothing compared to what will be in the end. The apostle Paul said that in so many words too: Our current light afflictions are nothing to the glory that will be revealed in us.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2017 2:39 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2017 8:21 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 243 of 283 (817659)
08-19-2017 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Faith
08-19-2017 7:26 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Faith writes:

How could two hippies bring an end to a god's creation? It must have been a really awful piece of work to get broken so quickly and easily and continue to be broken ever after. And how come your god didn't forsee this and either not do it or do it in a different way?
Goes something like this: It demonstrates the extreme seriousness of sin or disobedience to God. Human beings are made in His image, originally spiritual like Him, ruled by His Moral Law. It's His universe, governed by a spiritual law, the Moral Law. If that is broken the physical universe is broken. Living things become subject to disease and death. After accumulating sin to a great degree the world had to be completely destroyed by the Flood.

Nothing to say really except that all this is just pure irrational apologetics.

He knew it would happen, it had to happen

Yet he did it anyway. He's a psychopath

The idea of why He let it happen that I'm aware of is that His ultimate plan will be much better as a result of our going through all this. I think something like this is what kbertsche was saying: the suffering is nothing compared to what will be in the end. The apostle Paul said that in so many words too: Our current light afflictions are nothing to the glory that will be revealed in us.

That's the best excuse you can think of? There's an undiclosed masterplan that requires everything to suffer and die ("light afflictions" ffs) sometime, somewhere in the future. This is just nonsense.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 7:26 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Phat, posted 08-19-2017 10:38 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 244 of 283 (817679)
08-19-2017 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Tangle
08-19-2017 8:21 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
That's the best excuse you can think of? There's an undiclosed masterplan that requires everything to suffer and die ("light afflictions" ffs) sometime, somewhere in the future. This is just nonsense.
Perhaps as long as we are being hypothetical you can tell us what you would say to this hypothetical Creator Who is listening...

"Listen, God, my limited human wisdom is capable of coming up with a far better plan than the one your supposedly unlimited mind came up with...or at least the one these dysfunctional Christians seem to believe you came up with!"

So imagine that he is all ears. What would your approach as Creator of all seen and unseen have been?

Dont tell me...you would likely have him light the fuse, step back and watch the universe unfold through the natural processes which it already does. You would have Him expect us to be responsible, learn through trial and error on our own, and do pretty much what you conclude we have to do anyway, seeing as how He is an unnecessary part of it all!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2017 8:21 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2017 11:59 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 252 by ringo, posted 08-19-2017 12:19 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 245 of 283 (817708)
08-19-2017 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Tangle
08-19-2017 2:48 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Tangle writes:

As an atheist I know that the genie doesn't exist, I'm merely playing back what Christians say about him. I'm fully aware of what the god who created this nasty little experiment would be like - that's the point of the discussion - he'd be a psychopath.

I'm quite sure that your personal world is not nearly as dark and bleak as the world that you portray on this forum. Yes evil exists and and some of it horrifying. You are ignoring however the tremendous amount of good in the world. Sure species have become extinct but other species have evolved and taken their place. A life is a life. We have the Hitlers Pol Pots and Stalins of this world but we also have the untold millions who sacrifice their time, their resources and even their lives to make this world a better place for others.

Once again if we don't have the choice of evil then we can't choose the things that you see in my signature. The fact that we still exist with the freedom that we have in our cultures shows that in the bigger picture goodness is winning. I'd also point out that the parts of the world that have a judeo christian heritage are more free than the countries that don't in the majority of cases.

So I'd suggest that all of that points to the idea that the world does have narrative that is pointing to something beyond what we observe now. From the atheistic POV this world is ultimately headed to oblivion whereas the Christian POV says that overall life does have an ultimate purpose.

So of course this begs the question of which view is nastier; a naturalistic world ultimately destined for oblivion, or the Christian world ultimately destined for a new world energized by sacrificial love?


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2017 2:48 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2017 12:13 PM GDR has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 246 of 283 (817709)
08-19-2017 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Phat
08-19-2017 10:38 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Phat writes:

Perhaps as long as we are being hypothetical you can tell us what you would say to this hypothetical Creator Who is listening...

I'm not being hypothetical. Life is very, very real. A child starving to death is real. Why did he do this? You're not even attempting to answer beyond making up imaginary futures that even our own morality would discount as an evil. How do you square this with your all powerful loving god?

So imagine that he is all ears. What would your approach as Creator of all seen and unseen have been?

Have you ever thought to ask why create anything at all? Why does a god need to create feeble short lived creatures to torture? What is his motive? At best I see it as a play thing, something to pass the time then discard when bored. What need has a god for us? And I'll say it again, is this the best he can do?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Phat, posted 08-19-2017 10:38 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 247 of 283 (817711)
08-19-2017 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by kbertsche
08-18-2017 3:07 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
kbertsche writes:

There seems to be an implicit, unstated assumption behind this (and most) discussions of "the problem of evil": that God's highest priority is to reduce our human suffering.


That isn't my assumption; it's what Christians keep preaching at us, that God is love - until we point out that, "if God does NOT reduce human suffering, He is either evil or impotent."

kbertsche writes:

But what if God's highest priority is something else? Something on a longer and grander scale, like vanquishing ALL evil at the end of time?


Who gives a damn about the "end of time" even if there was such a thing? Why should people suffer today for some supposed end-of-time benefit?

Phat writes:

What if His priority for us, now, is not to reduce suffering, but to effect personal growth?


As I already said to Phat, a lot of people would probably rather give up the personal growth. If God is so big on choice, why doesn't He give us that one?

Phat writes:

Perhaps suffering is needed for our personal growth, just as we know that physical pain is a helpful warning to protect us from physical harm?


That seems like a pretty bad analogy. An injury or sickness is a backward step and pain warns us to fix it - i.e to get back to zero. It isn't about improvement.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by kbertsche, posted 08-18-2017 3:07 PM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by kbertsche, posted 08-20-2017 6:37 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 248 of 283 (817716)
08-19-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by GDR
08-18-2017 4:50 PM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:

The point is that something has to be added. Either the processes are mindless or the result of intelligence.


You contradict yourself. If the processes are mindless, nothing needs to be added.

GDR writes:

If the cause for the existence of the processes is mindless then you need the addition of a vast number of causes for the transition even between basic particles and the first atom, let alone sentient moral life.


But the magic word "intelligence" doesn't explain any of those causes. It just adds another cause - the intelligence itself - that can not be explained. You're always adding one. X + 1 is inherently more complex than X.

GDR writes:

That is hardly the point.


Again, show your work. Don't just say, "Nuh uh."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by GDR, posted 08-18-2017 4:50 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by GDR, posted 08-19-2017 4:51 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 249 of 283 (817717)
08-19-2017 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by GDR
08-19-2017 11:52 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GDR writes:


I'm quite sure that your personal world is not nearly as dark and bleak as the world that you portray on this forum.

Of course it isn't, my personal world is fine, for the moment. I'm talking about existence generally. When I'm suffering from arthritis and dementia I'll probably feel rather differently.

Yes evil exists and and some of it horrifying.

And you haven't yet been able to explain why.

You are ignoring however the tremendous amount of good in the world. Sure species have become extinct but other species have evolved and taken their place. A life is a life. We have the Hitlers Pol Pots and Stalins of this world but we also have the untold millions who sacrifice their time, their resources and even their lives to make this world a better place for others.

I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying the fact that there is good in the world is irrelevant, the question is why there is evil and suffering.

Once again if we don't have the choice of evil then we can't choose the things that you see in my signature.

You really believe that we have to have disease, pain, suffering, competition for life and ultimately death in order to have some good things? That's not rational.

So I'd suggest that all of that points to the idea that the world does have narrative that is pointing to something beyond what we observe now.

How can it point to anything other than what we see and know? You're dreaming.

From the atheistic POV this world is ultimately headed to oblivion whereas the Christian POV says that overall life does have an ultimate purpose.

Ultimate oblivion in a few billion years isn't something to concern ourselves about. The Christian idea of an after-life is just wishful thinking, no more, no less.

So of course this begs the question of which view is nastier; a naturalistic world ultimately destined for oblivion, or the Christian world ultimately destined for a new world energized by sacrificial love?

The naturalistic world is the only one we've got so we're all trying to make the best of it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by GDR, posted 08-19-2017 11:52 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by GDR, posted 08-19-2017 10:18 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 250 of 283 (817718)
08-19-2017 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Tangle
08-19-2017 2:39 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Tangle writes:

How could two hippies bring an end to a god's creation?


And vegans at that. They didn't even kill anything, yet they're responsible for all death.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2017 2:39 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 251 of 283 (817719)
08-19-2017 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Phat
08-19-2017 2:42 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Phat writes:

Jesus was in the beginning.


That's a false doctrine.

Phat writes:

... Lucifer fell from heaven and became a talking snake.


Also false.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 08-19-2017 2:42 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 08-20-2017 2:10 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 252 of 283 (817722)
08-19-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Phat
08-19-2017 10:38 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Phat writes:

What would your approach as Creator of all seen and unseen have been?


Let Adam and Eve stay in the Garden.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Phat, posted 08-19-2017 10:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 253 of 283 (817752)
08-19-2017 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by ringo
08-19-2017 12:11 PM


Re: Why do you care?
ringo writes:

You contradict yourself. If the processes are mindless, nothing needs to be added.

Not correct. Something had to occur to cause any one of the countless processes that are required to start. It could be anything like some star going super nova or any other cause.

ringo writes:

So a house that's held together by nails is a more complex explanation than a house that's held together by magic? Because there are hundreds of nails and only one magician? Come on. Surely you can see how stupid that argument is.
The complexity is the magician.

GDR writes:

That is hardly the point. By the way if you really want magic then just look at quantum mechanics.

ringo writes:

Again, show your work. Don't just say, "Nuh uh."

That's pretty simple. We understand completely how a house is held together by nails, which is obviously the result of intelligence. No one is able to explain the naturalist causes for the processes required to bring our world into existence. Frankly it seems to me more rational to conclude, as with the house, that there is a unified intelligence involved than to conclude that their was virtually an infinite number of cases of mindless random chance as a cause for our world.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by ringo, posted 08-19-2017 12:11 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 08-20-2017 2:35 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 254 of 283 (817762)
08-19-2017 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Tangle
08-19-2017 12:13 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Tangle writes:

And you haven't yet been able to explain why.


Well actually I have. You don't accept the answer but carry on asking the question anyway.

For suffering that is the result of human evil then I believe it is necessary in order that we have the choice between god and evil. Without that choice, or the memory of that choice, goodness could not exist.

As far as things like cancer or tsunamis are concerned I see it occuring due to the fact that we live in a world where time only flows in one direction and as a result the world is subject to entropy.

As far as carnivorous life is concerned it seems to me that it is a necessary way of culling the world of the weaker members of the animal world as in "the survival of the fittest". I agree that is the most difficult part to answer but as I worship the God of love whose nature I see embodied by Jesus then I have to go on faith that it is necessary. Again of course, I believe that ultimately the wolf will lay down with the lamb and it won't be a part of the new creation.

Tangle writes:

Ultimate oblivion in a few billion years isn't something to concern ourselves about. The Christian idea of an after-life is just wishful thinking, no more, no less.


Well wishful thinking or not I have come to the belief that this world isn't all that there is. Science speculates about other dimensions and universes that we don't perceive. Consciousness changes the reality of our world. Science tells us that we only perceive 4.5% of our perceived universe. I am not disputing the science but it is turning out to be far stranger than the Christian story.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2017 12:13 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Tangle, posted 08-20-2017 3:11 AM GDR has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 255 of 283 (817769)
08-20-2017 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by ringo
08-19-2017 12:16 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
how could you possibly claim they are false doctrines? At best it is your word versus others with contrary beliefs. The only argument you might try is the one that charges John as a revisionist gospel...yet even that is far from settled.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 08-19-2017 12:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by ringo, posted 08-20-2017 2:40 PM Phat has responded

  
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