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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
jar
Member
Posts: 29473
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 16 of 283 (744623)
12-13-2014 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
12-13-2014 2:57 PM


Re: I Beg Your Pardon,Maam
Faith writes:

The Bible contains those ideas, Phat, Calvin did not make them up.

That's what is so great about scripture Faith; it is so filled with contradictions that any position, even one as evil as what Calvin marketed can be supported.

There is no need to make shit up (although Biblical Christians do seem hell bent on making shit up); just select the pieces parts out of context to support your position.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 12-13-2014 2:57 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 4:48 PM jar has responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 9909
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 17 of 283 (744626)
12-13-2014 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
12-13-2014 3:00 PM


Re: The Governor and The Warlord
Faith writes:

If this is meant to characterize Calvinism it is completely wrong. God saves people according to His own sovereign will, not according to some notion of who likes and will follow him, because as scripture makes clear, and as Calvinism expresses in the concept of Total Depravity, there is nobody who likes God or wants to follow him == we're all born in sin and are all "at enmity" with God until we're saved. It's the act of saving us that changes us, we're born again and are new creatures with new hearts who are able to love God though before we were just sinners as every member of the human race is. God often chooses the worst sinners too, those who hate Him the most. So that analogy is just plain wrong.

Keep in mind Faith that we are all discussing these ideas in a Faith/Belief context. For the sake of this discussion, there is no absolute right nor wrong---all ideas are welcome. Keep in mind, also, that as individuals our beliefs are never absolute in regards to one source. Some of us may adapt some ideas from Calvinism, others from Arminianism, and still others from something or someone else that we read. Of course as a believer I believe that God is behind my quest fro wisdom and truth---in a strict sense I believe that Jesus Christ is Himself truth...thus were I lazy I would need no further study---but I also love discussion of ideas and concepts and so we continue.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 12-13-2014 3:00 PM Faith has not yet responded

herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1413
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 18 of 283 (744631)
12-13-2014 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
12-13-2014 2:39 PM


How on earth does anyone's being Elect, a sinner who is the recipient of God's free grace, exclude anyone else from anything?

I quote Wesley, from Message 283

quote:
Go now and find out how to split
the hair between thy being reprobated and not elected; how to separate
reprobation, in its most effectual sense, from unconditional election!
Acknowledge then that you hold reprobation. Avow it in the face of
the sun. To be consistent with yourself, you must openly assert, that
“without reprobation this election cannot stand.” You know it cannot.

You are apparently attributing the first scenario to Calvinism but that is not Calvinism, I suppose it's a figment of the Arminian imagination. The second scenario is the actual case: the offer of pardon is given to EVERYONE and some accept and some don't. It's only after we know who has accepted that we know who is elect, that's not something that can be known in advance, and even if God knows it we don't, we're told to offer the pardon to all, and we do.

You apparently don't understand limited atonement. From the OP:

quote:
Limited Atonement

Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation. (bold mine)


The pardon is NOT given to ALL, but only to the elect. True, we don't know who the elect are, but that's not the point. The point is according to limited atonement, God does know, and only extends the offer to the elect, whom he calls. Faith is only given to those whom he died for. How can you separate reprobation from limited atonement?

quote:
Go now and find out how to split
the hair between thy being reprobated and not elected; how to separate
reprobation, in its most effectual sense, from unconditional election!
Acknowledge then that you hold reprobation. Avow it in the face of
the sun. To be consistent with yourself, you must openly assert, that
“without reprobation this election cannot stand.” You know it cannot.

I'm not sure what the confusion is here but there is certainly some kind of major confusion going on. The governor, that is, God, according to Calvin, offers the pardon to ALL. The Bible is very clear about that and so is Calvin. The first scenario represents no Christian system I'm aware of and certainly not Calvinism.

That is the essence of the controversy. The Bible IS clear that God offers the pardon to all, but limited atonement and unconditional election work to contradict that.

If we aren't completely dependent on grace but do the work of accepting it all on our own, then we've contributed something to our salvation and "have something to boast of." It's not ALL of grace if we contribute anything from ourselves.

quote:
See, his faith was at work along with his actions. In fact, his faith was made complete by his faithful actions. So the scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and God regarded him as righteous. What is more, Abraham was called God’s friend. So you see that a person is shown to be righteous through faithful actions and not through faith alone. James 2:22-24 CEB

Abraham believed.

quote:
God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him won’t perish but will have eternal life. John 3:16 CEB

Our part: to believe

quote:
The elders in the past were approved because they showed faith. Hebrews 11:2

So God gives us faith and then approves when we have faith?

The rest of Hebrews 11 is filled with examples of people choosing to believe and then acting on faith.

quote:
See to it that you don’t resist the one who is speaking. If the people didn’t escape when they refused to listen to the one who warned them on earth, how will we escape if we reject the one who is warning from heaven? Hebrews 12:25 CEB

Again, our responsibility to listen and believe.

I'm not sure what the best way of stating it is but just as we offer the gospel to all, we expect all to be free to accept it as far as we ourselves can judge, because we have no ability to see God's will in these matters.

That is just chasing-your-tail rationalization.

That's the typical hypercalvinism you are all committing. No Calvinist thinks that way.

That's because the implications of Calvinism are intolerable.

John Wesley again:

quote:
I am verily persuaded, that, in the uprightness of your hearts, you defend
the decree of unconditional election; even in the same uprightness wherein
you reject and abhor that of unconditional reprobation. But consider, I
intreat you, whether you are consistent with yourselves; consider,
whether this election can be separate from reprobation; whether one of
them does not imply the other, so that, in holding one, you must hold
both.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 12-13-2014 2:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 12-14-2014 6:27 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1413
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 19 of 283 (744634)
12-13-2014 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
12-13-2014 2:43 PM


Re: The Governor and The Warlord
jars analogy would have the governor not only offering a pardon to every prisoner but releasing every prisoner whether they accepted the pardon or not..whereas HBD analogy says that all are offered the pardon yet only those who accept the pardon will have an opportunity to benefit from it.

I tend to think that everyone will have an opportunity to accept, perhaps even a second chance. I don't pretend this is necessarily a Biblically supported position (not that it is completely contradictory either), it just seems to fit my idea of God's justice. He truly does not wish any to perish and I believe will go to great lengths to give everyone the opportunity.

Pardoning everyone whether they want it or not seems to violate free will as well, just at the other extreme.

HBD

Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 2:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 4:43 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1413
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 20 of 283 (744635)
12-13-2014 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
12-13-2014 2:54 PM


Re: I Beg Your Pardon,Maam
Of course we could argue that the potter has every right to make some pots foreknowing their eventual value and sale at market whereas making other pots that he knows will never make it.

When Paul mentioned that God made some pots for noble purposes and some for common purposes, he wasn't saying that he made some that were worthless and to be destroyed. The image is of a skilled potter who makes some pots to hold water and some to hold jewelry. He was talking about gifts, not that he would make good pots and useless pots.

Critics would argue that my idea of God needs work, however.

Phat, I think we are all going to be surprised. None of us have it all figured out.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 2:54 PM Phat has not yet responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 9909
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 21 of 283 (744636)
12-13-2014 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by herebedragons
12-13-2014 4:19 PM


Re: The Governor and The Warlord
HBD writes:

Pardoning everyone whether they want it or not seems to violate free will as well, just at the other extreme.

This gets back to the analogy of hell, as I understand it and believe it. Some say that God created evil. Others say that God only created the possibility of evil and that humans through free will either actualize it or deny it.

Still others maintain that hell is an illusion...thus why the need for salvation.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by herebedragons, posted 12-13-2014 4:19 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 9909
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 22 of 283 (744637)
12-13-2014 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
12-13-2014 3:03 PM


Re: I Beg Your Pardon,Maam
jar writes:

There is no need to make shit up (although Biblical Christians do seem hell bent on making shit up); just select the pieces parts out of context to support your position.

Context allows us to more accurately determine the meaning in which the writer intended to convey. "Making stuff up" is in my mind nothing more than random thoughts not yet written down. I would agree that if a book is to be written it should have an outline and a purpose and motive for its publication and distribution. Ideally, all of our ideas are verbal expressions of books not yet written.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 12-13-2014 3:03 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 12-13-2014 4:49 PM Phat has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 29473
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 23 of 283 (744638)
12-13-2014 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
12-13-2014 4:48 PM


Re: I Beg Your Pardon,Maam
I have no idea what all that even means.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 4:48 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 4:59 PM jar has responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 9909
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 24 of 283 (744640)
12-13-2014 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
12-13-2014 4:49 PM


Re: I Beg Your Pardon,Maam
jar writes:

I have no idea what all that even means

Books are compilations of ideas, beliefs, facts, and fiction. John Calvin essentially read the same Bible that you or I or Faith have read. Calvin arrived at his own conclusions, as did Faith, as do I and as do you. My question, I suppose...is what is the difference between "making stuff up" in a book and in a forum? Answer: Nothing.
Next question:

If we take fifty authors with different interpretations as to what the compiled Bible means, what is our tentative conclusion on the matter?

Are we any wiser today than John Calvin was?

Should we ourselves rewrite the Bible based on better information?

I said in the OP that

quote:
Lets open this up for discussion, with the only presupposition being that GOD exists and that Jesus and the Bible are generally assumed presuppositional to our philosophy.
Perhaps I should not have said
quote:
Also allowed in this topic are other conclusions and how they are logically arrived at, given of course that GOD exists.
After all, the discussion is essentially on the philosophy and writings of early church fathers and reformers. I DO want us to freely add to the conclusions, seeing as how we are allegedly wiser than they were.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 12-13-2014 4:49 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 12-13-2014 5:28 PM Phat has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 29473
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 25 of 283 (744641)
12-13-2014 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
12-13-2014 4:59 PM


Re: I Beg Your Pardon,Maam
I still have no idea what your point is.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 4:59 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 6:24 PM jar has responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 9909
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 26 of 283 (744644)
12-13-2014 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
12-13-2014 5:28 PM


Re: I Beg Your Pardon,Maam
what is the difference between making stuff up and supporting your position? One could argue that everything is essentially made up when it comes to Faith & Belief.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 12-13-2014 5:28 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 12-13-2014 6:34 PM Phat has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 29473
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 27 of 283 (744645)
12-13-2014 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
12-13-2014 6:24 PM


the difference betwee making shit up and supporting a position
Phat writes:

what is the difference between making stuff up and supporting your position? One could argue that everything is essentially made up when it comes to Faith & Belief.

Nonsense. It is not made up to say "This is what Calvin wrote" or "Here is what is written in Genesis 2&3". Those are not made up but rather statements that can be supported by actually looking at the texts.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 6:24 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 04-08-2015 6:25 PM jar has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 29473
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 28 of 283 (744646)
12-13-2014 7:02 PM


on being wiser
Phat writes:

Are we any wiser today than John Calvin was?

I really hate seeing a term like "wiser" used without lots and lots of qualification.

Was Calvin wise at all? Does that even have any meaning? How could it be measured?

We certainly have far more knowledge today than Calvin. It would not be reasonable to expect Calvin to know that neither of the Biblical flood stories was factual, or that the Exodus and Conquest of Canaan stories were just myth. The evidence was simply not available to him.

Calvin simply had to work within the then available data and evidence.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 12-14-2014 3:28 PM jar has responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 9909
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 29 of 283 (744683)
12-14-2014 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
12-13-2014 7:02 PM


Re: on being wiser
jar writes:

Calvin simply had to work within the then available data and evidence.

I would argue that data and evidence in and of themselves do not increase theological wisdom. (except in the examples that you mentioned) I would agree that human concepts of religion and belief and even of GOD change over time, but the evidence won't change who GOD actually is nor what HE does.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 12-13-2014 7:02 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 12-14-2014 4:29 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 06-17-2015 3:37 PM Phat has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 29473
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 30 of 283 (744685)
12-14-2014 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
12-14-2014 3:28 PM


Re: on being wiser
Phat writes:

I would argue that data and evidence in and of themselves do not increase theological wisdom. (except in the examples that you mentioned) I would agree that human concepts of religion and belief and even of GOD change over time, but the evidence won't change who GOD actually is nor what HE does.

What the hell is "theological wisdom"?

Phat writes:

I would agree that human concepts of religion and belief and even of GOD change over time, but the evidence won't change who GOD actually is nor what HE does.

What the hell does that even mean and how does it have any relevance to the topic?

Why do you post such tripe Phat?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 12-14-2014 3:28 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

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