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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
Faith
Member
Posts: 26701
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 283 (744692)
12-14-2014 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by herebedragons
12-13-2014 4:10 PM


Faith writes:

How on earth does anyone's being Elect, a sinner who is the recipient of God's free grace, exclude anyone else from anything?

You answer with this quote from Wesley:

Go now and find out how to split the hair between thy being reprobated and not elected; how to separate reprobation, in its most effectual sense, from unconditional election! Acknowledge then that you hold reprobation. Avow it in the face of the sun. To be consistent with yourself, you must openly assert, that “without reprobation this election cannot stand.” You know it cannot.

As a matter of general fact the one class implies the other, I've acknowledged that, but your original statement sounded like you meant there is some direct connection between one person's election and another's reprobation but that's not implied in this at all. We don't know who's elect and we don't know how many are in each category. What if the reprobate included only the unrepentant sadistic mass murderers of history? Does God's election of anyone send them to Hell? Do you feel bad for them? My election does not determine my neighbor's reprobation. I see nothing in this to imply such a thing. In general the fact of election implies that some be elected to be reprobate but your way of connecting the two is wrong.

I'll have to come back to the rest but you said this to Phat:

When Paul mentioned that God made some pots for noble purposes and some for common purposes, he wasn't saying that he made some that were worthless and to be destroyed. The image is of a skilled potter who makes some pots to hold water and some to hold jewelry. He was talking about gifts, not that he would make good pots and useless pots.

Pots are made to hold wine and water and food, and also to hold dishwater and garbage and even human waste.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 32 of 283 (755484)
04-08-2015 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
12-13-2014 6:34 PM


Re: the difference betwee making shit up and supporting a position
Phat writes:

what is the difference between making stuff up and supporting your position? One could argue that everything is essentially made up when it comes to Faith & Belief.


jar writes:

Nonsense. It is not made up to say "This is what Calvin wrote" or "Here is what is written in Genesis 2&3". Those are not made up but rather statements that can be supported by actually looking at the texts.

I essentially made up the idea of potentialized evil versus actualized evil. I would argue that it makes more sense for God to create potential evil which still needs to be chosen rather than to simply condemn everyone by making actualized evil at the get go.

Why should we look only to texts for support for arguments? Does not what we think and say itself have as much scholarly thought as anything written down?


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

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Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 04-08-2015 8:59 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 34 by Omnivorous, posted 04-08-2015 9:27 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 04-09-2015 1:11 AM Phat has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 33 of 283 (755499)
04-08-2015 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
04-08-2015 6:25 PM


Re: the difference betwee making shit up and supporting a position
Does not what we think and say itself have as much scholarly thought as anything written down?

Some of what some people say is scholarly. Surely that is self evident.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 578 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 34 of 283 (755500)
04-08-2015 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
04-08-2015 6:25 PM


Re: the difference betwee making shit up and supporting a position
Phat writes:

Does not what we think and say itself have as much scholarly thought as anything written down?

Generally, no.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 04-08-2015 6:25 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13365
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 35 of 283 (755515)
04-09-2015 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
04-08-2015 6:25 PM


Re: the difference betwee making shit up and supporting a position
quote:

Why should we look only to texts for support for arguments ? Does not what we think and say itself have as much scholarly thought as anything written down?

That really depends on what the argument is about. If we are arguing about Calvin's beliefs , for instance, then obviously Calvin's writings are more relevant than our own opinions. Evidential value is a different criterion from "scholarly thought" - but it is one that "scholarly thought" must acknowledge.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 04-08-2015 6:25 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 06-17-2015 9:17 AM PaulK has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 36 of 283 (760062)
06-17-2015 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by PaulK
04-09-2015 1:11 AM


Re: the difference betwee making shit up and supporting a position
When it comes to religion, however...one could argue that it has all been "made up" anyway---by humans....thus anything I bring to the table should carry as much weight as any other belief.

Perhaps our debates settle around our interpretations of what has been written down (and/or said) by others.

It has been my observation that religious scholars---those who are educated and have a grasp of the history of religion---are often dull and uninspiring. Rarely do I hear anything inspiring. My critics would argue that I seek inspiration as if for want of a better term it is magical and having power to transform my life. I will in this instance agree with my critics, but I do not consider GOD to be magic. In my belief, Gods magic is in fact reality writ large.


God created war so that Americans would learn geography. –Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 04-09-2015 1:11 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by PaulK, posted 06-17-2015 9:39 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13365
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 37 of 283 (760065)
06-17-2015 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
06-17-2015 9:17 AM


Re: the difference betwee making shit up and supporting a position
If you prefer to believe an inspiring fantasy over a dully-presented truth then so be it. It doesn't mean that everyone else should share your preference - and those of us who valu intellectual honesty cannot.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 06-17-2015 9:17 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 38 of 283 (760085)
06-17-2015 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by PaulK
06-17-2015 9:39 AM


Re: the difference betwee making shit up and supporting a position
I would argue that there is an open discussion regarding intellectual honesty also. Granted there are many tried and true arguments regarding belief versus reality. The fact is, however, that the summatiion of the "facts" in all of reality---as understood by humanity currently---originate on this dust speck of a planet 9 light minutes from the nearest star in the middle of an ordinary galaxy of roughly one hundred billion stars in a known universe of roughly one hundred billion galaxies.

Our belief is that our own scientific method, observation and evidence are our most reliable approach to understanding this vast space. (Im speaking, of course of inner space within known social intellect as well as outer space that we can see and measure.)

Religion as a barometer of reality is quite rightly judged and found lacking for many of us. Some, however have concluded that a Creator with a higher intelligence than our own has answers for both our inner space and our outer space. Intelligence is a given in regards to life---both here on earth and elsewhere (as yet largely undiscovered)

Reality suggests that encounters with such intelligence may not always be peaceful nor will go our way.

Perhaps this is also why the idea of a God is repugnant to many people---they simply will not accept the idea of a higher intelligence than their own being directive or authoritative over anything in they or their kids futures.

Calvinism and Arminianism are simply paradigms of philosophical thought regarding relationship with a Deity. If we humans were to encounter a higher intelligence "out there" (or even "in here") It may not even be God.

What we would do then is attempt to define our reactions, beliefs, and strategies for dealing with it (them).

Current fantasies may well become future truths one way or another.


God created war so that Americans would learn geography. –Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by PaulK, posted 06-17-2015 9:39 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by PaulK, posted 06-17-2015 2:55 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13365
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 39 of 283 (760087)
06-17-2015 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
06-17-2015 2:37 PM


Re: the difference betwee making shit up and supporting a position
quote:

I would argue that there is an open discussion regarding intellectual honesty also

I would not. Obviously anyone who takes a story for truth because they find it "inspiring" and reject a well-reasoned, impeccably evidenced account because it is "dull" is not being intellectually honest.

quote:

Our belief is that our own scientific method, observation and evidence are our most reliable approach to understanding this vast space.

And for good reason.

quote:

Current fantasies may well become future truths one way or another.

Even if that is true in some senses, the number of current fantasies that are presently true - if any - must be far smaller than the number of fantasies around us. The chance of any one being true is vanishingly small. It's no excuse for believing fantasies.


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 Message 38 by Phat, posted 06-17-2015 2:37 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13963
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 40 of 283 (760095)
06-17-2015 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
12-14-2014 3:28 PM


Re: on being wiser
Phat writes:

I would argue that data and evidence in and of themselves do not increase theological wisdom.


That sounds like the ultimate cop-out: You don't have to study or even think to receive "theological wisdom". All you have to do is sit in your ivory tower and wait for it to come to you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 12-14-2014 3:28 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 06-18-2015 2:10 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 41 of 283 (760136)
06-18-2015 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
06-17-2015 3:37 PM


Re: on being wiser
Phat writes:

I would argue that data and evidence in and of themselves do not increase theological wisdom.


ringo writes:

That sounds like the ultimate cop-out: You don't have to study or even think to receive "theological wisdom". All you have to do is sit in your ivory tower and wait for it to come to you.

I emphasized "in and of themselves." We always need to think and we do need to study...but if that is all we did, our own efforts...arguably won't get us any closer to GOD. Granted I cant measure the distance between the known and the unknown. Perhaps I need to use my Apple and uncover my awareness of my nakedness and my Original Synapse.

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. –Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 06-17-2015 3:37 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 06-18-2015 11:55 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13963
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 42 of 283 (760183)
06-18-2015 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
06-18-2015 2:10 AM


Re: on being wiser
Phat writes:

I emphasized "in and of themselves."


No you didn't.

Phat writes:

We always need to think and we do need to study...but if that is all we did, our own efforts...arguably won't get us any closer to GOD.


It wouldn't get us any closer to unicorns either. In fact, they more we study and think, the more it seems that unicorns don't exist - which is why I suggested that you're making an effort not to study or think because you might learn something you don't want to know.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 43 of 283 (760333)
06-20-2015 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
06-18-2015 11:55 AM


Re: on being wiser
ringo writes:

It wouldn't get us any closer to unicorns either. In fact, the more we study and think, the more it seems that unicorns don't exist - which is why I suggested that you're making an effort not to study or think because you might learn something you don't want to know.

And what possibly could that be?

To many it seems that GOD doesn't exist but I'm never afraid that it is true.

Granted GOD Himself may not be what I really want to know...but I pray that He is as I believe that He is and not some mystery prize on Lets Make A Deal that I pick by mistake.

Besides...I would argue that He chose me long before I was capable of choosing Him.

But alas...we are drifting off topic.


God created war so that Americans would learn geography. –Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 06-18-2015 11:55 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 06-20-2015 12:00 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13963
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 44 of 283 (760340)
06-20-2015 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
06-20-2015 11:33 AM


Re: on being wiser
Phat writes:

To many it seems that GOD doesn't exist but I'm never afraid that it is true.


Well, you "seem" to be lost without the idea of a Sky Daddy.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 06-20-2015 11:33 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 06-23-2015 5:04 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 45 of 283 (760599)
06-23-2015 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ringo
06-20-2015 12:00 PM


Lost In Space
ringo writes:

Well, you "seem" to be lost without the idea of a Sky Daddy.

I'll go a step further than that. Without the idea, nothing would exist.

Through Him all things were created. This means every material. every animal, vegetable or mineral, and every idea within our minds.

In fact, even your next post will be inspired by Him and through Him even if you don't believe in Him.

Wiki writes:

Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

Were this true, you may in fact be predestined not to believe!


God created war so that Americans would learn geography. –Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 06-20-2015 12:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by AZPaul3, posted 06-23-2015 7:18 PM Phat has responded
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 06-25-2015 12:10 PM Phat has responded

  
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