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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
Phat
Member
Posts: 9594
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 61 of 275 (815512)
07-20-2017 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
12-13-2014 2:43 PM


Re: The Governor and The Warlord
jar,in another thread writes:

Talk about truly evil inventions and Calvinism has to be near or atop the list.

Perhaps we better revisit this.

Phat,in 2014 writes:

jar used to have an analogy known as The Warlord:

quote:
There once was a missionary in China. The village he was in was very poor, the crops had failed and people were near starving. One of the warlords showed up and told the people, if they would abandon their current master and join him he would see they got food. Just believe in him and all will be okay. Any that did not believe in him would be left to starve to death.
The warlord could have saved everyone, he had wealth and more than enough food, but instead he wanted to save only those who would follow him.

The analogy goes on to teach that the warlord had enough food for everyone and thus should have fed everyone...including those who did not like him nor wish to follow him.
jars analogy would have the governor not only offering a pardon to every prisoner but releasing every prisoner whether they accepted the pardon or not..whereas HBD analogy says that all are offered the pardon yet only those who accept the pardon will have an opportunity to benefit from it.

I would only say that you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink.

Why is the Warlords philosophy such a good thing? Shouldnt people have a right to refuse the pardon?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 2:43 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 07-20-2017 5:19 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29187
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 62 of 275 (815515)
07-20-2017 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
07-20-2017 5:02 PM


Re: The Governor and The Warlord
Stop misrepresenting me Phat.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 07-20-2017 5:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 07-21-2017 12:49 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9594
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 63 of 275 (815527)
07-21-2017 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
07-20-2017 5:19 PM


Re: The Governor and The Warlord
How did I misrepresent you? I quoted you. My question is whether the warlord analogy makes sense and whether it can be compared to the governor's pardon analogy.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 07-20-2017 5:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 07-21-2017 6:50 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29187
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 64 of 275 (815539)
07-21-2017 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
07-21-2017 12:49 AM


Re: The Governor and The Warlord
No Phat, you went on to describe an assumption to me which is not one that I made.

The problem is that I don't think you even realize how often you do that. You said "jars analogy would have the governor not only offering a pardon to every prisoner but releasing every prisoner whether they accepted the pardon or not..whereas HBD analogy says that all are offered the pardon yet only those who accept the pardon will have an opportunity to benefit from it." which is NOT what I said or implied or suggested.

I said that the Warlord had food enough for everyone and so should have fed everyone. I did not say everyone had to eat.

But even beyond that, what does that have to do with Calvinism or Arminianism? Do you know what either entails?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 07-21-2017 12:49 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 07-21-2017 1:15 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9594
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 65 of 275 (815594)
07-21-2017 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
07-21-2017 6:50 AM


Re: The Governor and The Warlord
I thought I explained the positions earlier in this topic.

quote:
According to Arminianism:

Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man(who must respond)—man’s response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, “choose” to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man’s will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.REJECTED by the Synod of Dort. This was the system of thought contained in the “Remonstrance” (though the “five points” were not originally arranged in this order). It was submitted by the Arminians to the Church of Holland in 1610 for adoption but was rejected by the Synod of Dort in 1619 on the ground that it was unscriptural.


So could it be said that the Warlord takes the initiative to provide food for everyone yet they must respond by eating his provision in order to avoid starvation?
quote:

According to Calvinism:

Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ’s death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.REAFFIRMED by the Synod of DortThis system of theology was reaffirmed by the Synod of Dort in 1619 as the doctrine of salvation contained in the Holy Scriptures. The system was at that time formulated into “five points” (in answer to the five points submitted by the Arminians) and has ever since been known as “the five points of Calvinism.”

The above was taken from Calvinism-vs-Arminianism comparison chart


In the second example, must the warlord feed his enemies as well?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 07-21-2017 6:50 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 07-21-2017 2:32 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29187
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 66 of 275 (815602)
07-21-2017 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
07-21-2017 1:15 PM


Re: The Governor and The Warlord
Phat writes:

So could it be said that the Warlord takes the initiative to provide food for everyone yet they must respond by eating his provision in order to avoid starvation?

If you don't eat then eventually you starve.

Phat writes:

In the second example, must the warlord feed his enemies as well?

"Do you not destroy your enemies when you make them your friends?" That is certainly not an original quote by any means.

Did Jesus not tell us we should love our enemies?

As a practical example, if we had spent the money we used to fight the Gulf Wars and the fighting in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan in education and health care and infrastructure not just here but wherever it was needed isn't it likely we would have fewer "enemies"?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 07-21-2017 1:15 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 07-23-2017 3:54 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9594
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 67 of 275 (815722)
07-23-2017 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
07-21-2017 2:32 PM


Spending money Wherever Needed
jar writes:

Did Jesus not tell us we should love our enemies?

As a practical example, if we had spent the money we used to fight the Gulf Wars and the fighting in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan in education and health care and infrastructure not just here but wherever it was needed isn't it likely we would have fewer "enemies"?

I totally agree. I have always questioned the idea of "original sin" yet the evidence shows that humanity has not learned to collectively be as wise as we should be. Why do you suppose this is? Is war based on a profit motive and, if so, does this not prove intrinsic evil in human character?

And getting back to Calvinism. Tell me again why the doctrine is so evil... is it due to the idea of a God who foreknowingly creates critters destined to be damned? Or is that an excuse conveniently provided by us to pardon ourselves....

Also...concerning spending wherever needed....could our current form of government allow us to spend money to heal rather than money to police? How do you see our behavior as relating to willful...if not original sin?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 07-21-2017 2:32 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 07-23-2017 4:10 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 69 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2017 4:27 PM Phat has responded
 Message 70 by NoNukes, posted 07-25-2017 12:21 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29187
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 68 of 275 (815727)
07-23-2017 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
07-23-2017 3:54 PM


Original Sin is a convenient cop out.
Phat writes:

How do you see our behavior as relating to willful...if not original sin?

The concept of "Original Sin" is another great cop out to allow those who claim it to avoid responsibility for their own actions. It is a deplorable and pathetic excuse used by deplorable and pathetic people.

Phat writes:

Is war based on a profit motive and, if so, does this not prove intrinsic evil in human character?

That is yet another example of cop outs. Wars happen for many reasons and wars are opposed for many reasons. If you wish to claim war shows some intrinsic evil then you must also agree that the opposing side in a war shows the same intrinsic evil.

Phat writes:

And getting back to Calvinism. Tell me again why the doctrine is so evil... is it due to the idea of a God who foreknowingly creates critters destined to be damned?

That is certainly part but Calvinism is far worse than just that; it is perhaps the most vile, mean, evil, disgusting creation of Christianity.

Imagine telling a child that they are condemned at birth, worthless and can only be saved through the acts of someone else? Any parent that treated their child in that way would certainly and rightly be considered a horrid parent.

Calvinism seems to have absolutely no social redeeming characteristics.

Phat writes:

Also...concerning spending wherever needed....could our current form of government allow us to spend money to heal rather than money to police?

Of course our current form of government could use money to heal rather than harm; BUT only if the voting public demands such behavior.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 07-23-2017 3:54 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4983
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 69 of 275 (815730)
07-23-2017 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
07-23-2017 3:54 PM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
Phat writes:

I have always questioned the idea of "original sin" yet the evidence shows that humanity has not learned to collectively be as wise as we should be. Why do you suppose this is?

It's because all life on earth is competitive. It's set up that way and we're no different.

It's simple really - you're god apparently built a world where every species has to fight other species and its own, simply to survive. We're relics of that business model and only now learning to deal with it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 07-23-2017 3:54 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 08-03-2017 1:33 AM Tangle has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9816
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 70 of 275 (815835)
07-25-2017 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
07-23-2017 3:54 PM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
nd getting back to Calvinism. Tell me again why the doctrine is so evil

According to Calvinists, there are people foreordained to the worst torment available for an eternity, and there is nothing they, you or anybody else can do about it. A lifetime spent seeking to avoid such punishment is doomed to failure?

Given that the Bible itself teaches no such thing, with Calvinism being imposed on the Bible absent any clear Biblical support because folks have a fatalistic philosophy seems like pure evil to me.

Yes, free will is a difficult thing to resolve in the face of omniscience. But why would a Christian choose to resolve the problem in the most hideous way possible?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 07-23-2017 3:54 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9594
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 71 of 275 (816335)
08-03-2017 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Tangle
07-23-2017 4:27 PM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
Tangle writes:

It's simple really - you're god apparently built a world where every species has to fight other species and its own, simply to survive. We're relics of that business model and only now learning to deal with it.

Well, whether it was created or evolved in humans, its a hideous system. Competition allows no possibility of being blessed or favored---two traits which I count on at my advanced age in order to keep up with the young lions ready to knock me off my pedestal. Competition is cruel to the aged.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2017 4:27 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Tangle, posted 08-03-2017 3:06 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4983
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 72 of 275 (816341)
08-03-2017 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phat
08-03-2017 1:33 AM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
Phat writes:

Well, whether it was created or evolved in humans, its a hideous system. Competition allows no possibility of being blessed or favored---two traits which I count on at my advanced age in order to keep up with the young lions ready to knock me off my pedestal. Competition is cruel to the aged.

Competition is cruel, period. It's hard to imagine a more cruel way of setting up a system of life.

Even the existence of carnivorousness is evil - life having to hunt and kill other life to to be alive themselves is fantastically cruel. People evolved in this system of kill or be killed, fight will your neighbour and other animals for food, shelter, mating rights and security. Then, even if you succeed, you eventually die anyway.

It really should be no surprise that we still exhibit some of these ancient traits. It should also make you wonder why your god set up such an evil and monstrous system in the first place.

Edited by Tangle, : NoNuke's pedantry ;-)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 08-03-2017 1:33 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by NoNukes, posted 08-03-2017 2:21 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 08-04-2017 12:18 PM Tangle has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9816
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 73 of 275 (816376)
08-03-2017 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Tangle
08-03-2017 3:06 AM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
Competition is cruel, period. It's hard to imagine a less cruel way of setting up a system of life.

I think you reverse the sense of one of your adverbs...

Even the existence of carnivorousness is evil - life having to hunt and kill other life to to be alive themselves is fantastically cruel.

I disagree. Particularly when the alternative is a population of sickly, weak, and unevolved animals. In my opinion, the circle of life imposed over a circumstance of competition, survival, and evolution works extremely well and produces a superb outcome. I doubt that humans could evolve in the "good" system you envision.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Tangle, posted 08-03-2017 3:06 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 08-03-2017 2:39 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4983
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 74 of 275 (816378)
08-03-2017 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by NoNukes
08-03-2017 2:21 PM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
NoNukes writes:

I think you reverse the sense of one of your adverbs...


Fixed thanks.

quote:
I disagree. Particularly when the alternative is a population of sickly, weak, and unevolved animals. In my opinion, the circle of life imposed over a circumstance of competition, survival, and evolution works extremely well and produces a superb outcome. I doubt that humans could evolve in the "good" system you envision.

There's a lot going on here isnt there?

Firstly, why is the alternative to carnivorism sickly, weak and unevolved? Herbivores are as evolved as any other critter.

Second, what is this superb outcome? And why is it better than another outcome such as one where life on earth isn't 'short and brutish'.

Third, if this is a design, why on earth pick this one for us - it's ham-fisted, cruel and stupid. A child could design a better world given an infinite paint pallette.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by NoNukes, posted 08-03-2017 2:21 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2017 5:09 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13473
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 75 of 275 (816439)
08-04-2017 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Tangle
08-03-2017 3:06 AM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
Tangle writes:

Even the existence of carnivorousness is evil....


Maybe from the zebra's point of view. The lion would probably think a garden salad was evil.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Tangle, posted 08-03-2017 3:06 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2017 1:38 PM ringo has responded

  
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