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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 91 of 269 (816600)
08-07-2017 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Tangle
08-07-2017 2:18 PM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
Objectively, I say that is an evil experiment. And if a god built it that way, then he is guilty.

Again, assuming there is another way to build a universe and that God is responsible for micromanaging things to a degree only a Creationist would accept. That is your premise. That God should have done things the way Tangle would have done it, regardless of whether such things are even scientifically possible.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2017 2:18 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2017 5:31 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4980
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 92 of 269 (816601)
08-07-2017 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by NoNukes
08-07-2017 5:23 PM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
NoNukes writes:

Again, assuming there is another way to build a universe

Why wouldn't there be? But if there isn't, and he did it anyway, then he's culpable.

and that God is responsible for micromanaging things to a degree only a Creationist would accept.

I don't accept god is micromanaging anything - he very obviously isn't. He just organised the event, put it all together, lit the blue touch paper and retired to watch the show.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by NoNukes, posted 08-07-2017 5:23 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by NoNukes, posted 08-09-2017 7:39 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4264
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 93 of 269 (816602)
08-07-2017 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-11-2014 5:44 PM


IMHO it misses the point.
phat writes:

Also allowed in this topic are other conclusions and how they are logically arrived at, given of course that GOD exists.

I think I'd like to try it from a different perspective The whole question, as you put it in the OP, pretty much seems to revolve around who is saved and who isn't. The supposition being that we are saved to heaven and from hell. How about the more Biblical theme that we are saved for a purpose?

So much of Christianity has turned Christ's teaching on its ear and made it all about the self. The big question so often seems to me to be what is going to happen to me when I die. What can I do to ensure a good outcome? Jesus' message was that we are to take the focus off of ourselves and begin to love unselfishly and yet here are many Christians again focusing on the self.

So yes, God chooses those whose hearts are turned by His Holy Spirit, (that still small voice that is there for all of us), to be His instruments to build for a world where we actively anticipate the time when all of creation is renewed and unselfish love is fully the norm. Tangle is right in that the world is not what it should be, but God's end game is a world where the wolf will lay down with the lamb.

I like Psalm 37 vs 4 where it says that we should delight in the Lord and that He will give us the desires of our heart. God through His Spirit, (again that still small voice), is the great heart changer, and if we respond positively to that voice God will cause us to desire that which he desires for us.

In Ephesains 1 Paul tells us that ultimately ALL things on heaven and on earth will be renewed under Christ. That isn’t to say that our choices in this life aren’t important for us as individuals but ultimately it is our hearts that will be judged and I simply trust in God’s perfect justice. I am best able to picture how that happens by CS Lewis’ images in both “The Great Divorce” and “The Last Battle”.

Bottom line is, we are chosen for vocation, (reflecting God’s love into His creation), and if we respond to that the next life will take care of itself.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 12-11-2014 5:44 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 269 (816714)
08-09-2017 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Tangle
08-07-2017 5:31 PM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
hy wouldn't there be? But if there isn't, and he did it anyway, then he's culpable.

In my opinion, your resolution makes no sense, but perhaps your statement above is as close as we are going to get to a view from each other's perspective.

In my opinion, the universe we have is infinitely more beneficial that one with no life, no free will, no human level intelligence, etc. even if our sun only lasts a few billion years, and cheetahs cannot be convinced not to eat gazelles. What we have is also better than no universe at all. At least the current universe allows Tangle to ask the questions he asks.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2017 5:31 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 08-10-2017 3:56 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4980
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 95 of 269 (816729)
08-10-2017 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by NoNukes
08-09-2017 7:39 PM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
NoNukes writes:

In my opinion, the universe we have is infinitely more beneficial that one with no life, no free will, no human level intelligence, etc.

But you've simply assumed this binary choice - life brutal and nasty or no life. That's clearly a fallacy.

quote:
What we have is also better than no universe at all. At least the current universe allows Tangle to ask the questions he asks.

What we have is what we observe, a brutish, kill or be killed life where all organisms battle for survival only to die anyway when reproductive value is no longer high. This is quite obviously an ungodly system and we now have all the evidence required by reasonable people to show its underlying natural mechanisms.

But this leaves the original question hanging. Why would the loving god described by believers, set up such a system? By our own morality - that which believers tell me their god gave us - such an experiment would judged profoundly unethical, not to say evil.

Could this all powerful god, not do any better? Really? I seems to me that any fair analysis is that if he couldn't do any better he's not the god that is taught - he is not the all powerful god of the bible and neither is he omniscient, he literally doesn't know what he's doing, because if he did and he did it anyway, then he's evil.

NoNuke's personal god is either a weak and immature one that is not the one described in the bible and believed by multiple versions of Christianity or one that is profoundly evil.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by NoNukes, posted 08-09-2017 7:39 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by GDR, posted 08-11-2017 6:58 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4264
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 96 of 269 (816831)
08-11-2017 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Tangle
08-10-2017 3:56 AM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
Tangle writes:

But this leaves the original question hanging. Why would the loving god described by believers, set up such a system? By our own morality - that which believers tell me their god gave us - such an experiment would judged profoundly unethical, not to say evil.

Hi Tangle
As Christians we have to be able some how to deal with the problems you raise. All I can do is give you my own thinking which will no doubt not change your mind but at least it gives me a chance to condense my own thinking.

Firstly my understanding of the Bible and the world we live in leads me to the conclusion that this is a project begun and maintained by an intelligence, that I know as God. That project is not yet complete. It may be meant as a metaphor, but I take seriously the biblical comment that ultimately the wolf will lay down with the lamb, and not eat it. I think that the ultimate climax of this creation will be a new creation that won’t exhibit the problems that you have outlined.

I conclude that in order to get to that new world this world as we know it is necessary. The world we live in now is subject to entropy as a result of existing in a world where time only flows in one direction. As a result tectonic plates shift and cause earthquakes and tsunamis. We also live in a world that is open where are left with free will, and as a result are allowed to choose between good and evil. People often choose evil but many also choose to love sacrificially. When people choose the evil route it usually causes misery and suffering for others. As I say, though I don’t believe that is the end of the story.

I believe that as humans we are charged with living lives that will reflect that new world that ultimately God will create into the present. It again is my belief that this is the ultimate human vocation. So I believe that we are living in a creation that is in process, and that somehow God will ultimately use the love that we reflect into this world in the present into the final act of creation and the renewal of all things.

So essentially I agree with NN that this world with all its faults is necessary in order to get to a world where the problems that you bring up no longer exist.

Edited by GDR, : Left out a period.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 08-10-2017 3:56 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2017 3:11 AM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25867
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 97 of 269 (816837)
08-11-2017 9:34 PM


the usual two errors
The most central facts seem to be getting left out of this discussion.

1. The brutishness of life is due to the Fall, not God's original Creation.

2. The ability to do good works depends on being saved so it's hardly selfish to focus on it.


Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 08-11-2017 10:02 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 98 of 269 (816839)
08-11-2017 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
08-11-2017 9:34 PM


the usual two errors are actually Faith's nonsense.
Faith writes:

1. The brutishness of life is due to the Fall, not God's original Creation.

Bullshit. The brutishness of life is due to the God in Genesis 2&3 deciding to make life brutish. There was no Fall.

Faith writes:

2. The ability to do good works depends on being saved so it's hardly selfish to focus on it.

Bullshit. Being saved has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to good works.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 08-11-2017 9:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4980
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 99 of 269 (816846)
08-12-2017 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by GDR
08-11-2017 6:58 PM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
GDR writes:

Firstly my understanding of the Bible and the world we live in leads me to the conclusion that this is a project begun and maintained by an intelligence, that I know as God. That project is not yet complete. It may be meant as a metaphor, but I take seriously the biblical comment that ultimately the wolf will lay down with the lamb, and not eat it. I think that the ultimate climax of this creation will be a new creation that won’t exhibit the problems that you have outlined.

I conclude that in order to get to that new world this world as we know it is necessary.

I'm aware of how modern, sophisticated Christians now attempt to rationalise this impossible problem - Faith's biblical 'Fall' being the simpleton myth preached for centuries before we became enlightened - but it really doesn't work does it?

Firstly, for millions of years the wolf has been slaughtering lambs - we now know that almost all of life that there has ever been here on earth is now extinct. Gone. Trillons of organisms. This experiment of your god is a cataclysmic failure that's caused millions of years of pain and suffering and is going to continue until the suns dies or Kim Jong-un decices to end it for us.

Second, in order for you to believe what you now say, you have to accept that your god is not the all loving, all knowing, all powerful, everywhere god of you teachings but a limited and blundering one only capable of creating this mess in the hope that it all gets better one day. The best you can say is that the ends might justify the means - a vain hope and one that we ourselves consider immoral.

If you must assume a god, then the alterantive is that your god is evil by our own standards.

Of course if you apply Occam's razor and throw away the unnecessary god hypothesis, the problem is solved - life is short, disposable and brutish because it has no goal except to create more life in whatever means it can - no matter have inefficient and nasty.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by GDR, posted 08-11-2017 6:58 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by GDR, posted 08-12-2017 1:08 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 08-12-2017 2:40 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4264
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 100 of 269 (816875)
08-12-2017 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Tangle
08-12-2017 3:11 AM


Why do you care?
Tangle writes:

Firstly, for millions of years the wolf has been slaughtering lambs - we now know that almost all of life that there has ever been here on earth is now extinct. Gone. Trillons of organisms. This experiment of your god is a cataclysmic failure that's caused millions of years of pain and suffering and is going to continue until the suns dies or Kim Jong-un decices to end it for us.

Second, in order for you to believe what you now say, you have to accept that your god is not the all loving, all knowing, all powerful, everywhere god of you teachings but a limited and blundering one only capable of creating this mess in the hope that it all gets better one day. The best you can say is that the ends might justify the means - a vain hope and one that we ourselves consider immoral.

I believe in a creative intelligence that is responsible for all life as we know it. I believe that He detests our suffering and that ultimately there will be perfect justice for the Hitlers, Stalins and Pol Pots of this world as well as for those that suffered as a result of theirs and others evil. I believe that the suffering of this life will end with a world where there will be no suffering.

You however believe, correct me if I’m wrong, that we are the result of mindless particles combining by chance and through myriads of processes to bring about evolution and sentient life with an understanding of morality. Also, that at the end of individual life, as well as for all of creation as we perceive it, there is nothing but oblivion.

Why do you care about suffering in far flung parts of the world let alone have any desire to actual sacrifice your own resources to do anything about it.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2017 3:11 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2017 5:10 PM GDR has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9589
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 101 of 269 (816877)
08-12-2017 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Tangle
08-12-2017 3:11 AM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
tangle writes:

Of course if you apply Occam's razor and throw away the unnecessary god hypothesis, the problem is solved - life is short, disposable and brutish because it has no goal except to create more life in whatever means it can - no matter have inefficient and nasty.

And then you get to teach your kids how to be less brutal, more efficient, and less nasty. The lesson is taught. The God of my imagination played you like a pawn in a chess game!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2017 3:11 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2017 6:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4980
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 102 of 269 (816880)
08-12-2017 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by GDR
08-12-2017 1:08 PM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:

You however believe, correct me if I’m wrong, that we are the result of mindless particles combining by chance and through myriads of processes to bring about evolution and sentient life with an understanding of morality. Also, that at the end of individual life, as well as for all of creation as we perceive it, there is nothing but oblivion.

Fairly close but with the exception that you're overlaying this belief thing of yours onto it and adding some hyperbole, It just is what it appears to be, I accept it pending further information.

Why do you care about suffering in far flung parts of the world let alone have any desire to actual sacrifice your own resources to do anything about it.

Because I'm human, why else?

Why do I not do anything much about it? (Because I'm human.)

But you haven't answered any of the issues presented - you've simply repeated your hopes and beliefs.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by GDR, posted 08-12-2017 1:08 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by GDR, posted 08-13-2017 10:21 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4980
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 103 of 269 (816881)
08-12-2017 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
08-12-2017 2:40 PM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
Phat writes:

And then you get to teach your kids how to be less brutal, more efficient, and less nasty.

Yes, despite your god setting the entirety of life that way. We have to go against nature in order to make our short lives better.

The lesson is taught. The God of my imagination played you like a pawn in a chess game!

What lesson? That god is a pychopath that plays with us cruelly for his pleasure? What are you thinking? Apply your own morality to how the world is. How would you judge the maker of this world? Try to put aside you beliefs and look at the evidence - is this a world you would build if you could build one? Is it a moral system?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 08-12-2017 2:40 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4264
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 104 of 269 (816904)
08-13-2017 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Tangle
08-12-2017 5:10 PM


Re: Why do you care?
Tangle writes:

Of course if you apply Occam's razor and throw away the unnecessary god hypothesis, the problem is solved - life is short, disposable and brutish because it has no goal except to create more life in whatever means it can - no matter have inefficient and nasty.

I suggest that Occam's razor insists that we are the result of design by an intelligence. Your solution requires endless processes all requiring incredible amounts of good fortune to get from mindless particles to an evolutionary process resulting in life as we know it.

Actually, God did it is by far the simplest explanation.

GDR writes:

Why do you care about suffering in far flung parts of the world let alone have any desire to actual sacrifice your own resources to do anything about it.

Tangle writes:


Because I'm human, why else?

Why do I not do anything much about it? (Because I'm human.)

What kind of explanation is that? You are doing what you accuse me of doing which is restating your beliefs. t.

Why would a collection of mindless particles care about another collection of mindless particles that they have no connection with, have never met and that are using up available resources.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2017 5:10 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 08-13-2017 10:57 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 106 by Tangle, posted 08-13-2017 1:08 PM GDR has responded
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 08-13-2017 2:15 PM GDR has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 105 of 269 (816906)
08-13-2017 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by GDR
08-13-2017 10:21 AM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:

Why would a collection of mindless particles care about another collection of mindless particles that they have no connection with, have never met and that are using up available resources.

That is certainly not a very convincing, reasonable, rational or even honest criticism.

The reality is that a collection of mindless particles does exist that we have decided to call a mind that has the ability to register and collate data in a format that another collection of mindless particles can experience and respond to.

There is ample evidence that the individual particles really are mindless.

There is ample evidence that the collections of particles exist and function in general as described.

There is ample evidence that the various collections of particles have evolved over time generally towards greater complexity of the collection of mindless particles we identify as the brain.

There is ample evidence of various collections of mindless particles we identify as animals to similar reactions to given situations; an awareness of hunger, pain, sex, happiness, play, joy, even self as examples.

There is ample evidence that in the collection of mindless particles we identify as humans that empathy, including empathy for others has evolved from an empathy for those in our immediate family, clan, tribe, nation to extend to not just those outside our immediate family, clan, tribe or nation but even to other species of collections of mindless particles.

All those things can be supported by evidence.

God cannot.

It's fine to believe God did it but it's just silly to claim God did it or that "God did it" explains anything.

God did it is not an explanation but simply a cessation of discussion and thought; a cop out. It is a willful decision to stop learning and searching.

While we may well believe in some creative guiding being we need to understand that that is not a reasonable, rational or logical position and certainly not supported by any evidence.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by GDR, posted 08-13-2017 10:21 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
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